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  1. #11
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    It's a piece of cloth representing an arbitrary geographical boundary.
    Calm down.
    Nonetheless, it is still important to people. It tells of the place of origin, your culture, your people, how your people developed, and what became the flag. For some places, the flag tells a long history of the area. These ideas resonate strongly with people.

    It can be as important as the paper document like the Bill Of Rights. It's amazing how a piece of document or item can compel people. I see the flag as something special, one in which we continually added stars onto the flag, so it holds a special place towards the nation. It says, with those 50 stars, that we are together. With those 13 stripes, it tells the story of where the nation came away from (Britain.)

  2. #12
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    There is a grin on my shaking face.

  3. #13
    Insert witty line here... Ponyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My dad was a Marine and he says he fought for people's right to burn the flag. He considers articles of clothing with flag designs much more disrespectful than burning the flag in protest, etc.
    As another Vet, I agree with your dad 100%
    I'm never wrong, I'm just sometimes less right

  4. #14
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Nonetheless, it is still important to people. It tells of the place of origin, your culture, your people, how your people developed, and what became the flag. For some places, the flag tells a long history of the area. These ideas resonate strongly with people.

    It can be as important as the paper document like the Bill Of Rights. It's amazing how a piece of document or item can compel people. I see the flag as something special, one in which we continually added stars onto the flag, so it holds a special place towards the nation. It says, with those 50 stars, that we are together. With those 13 stripes, it tells the story of where the nation came away from (Britain.)
    The bill of rights is just paper, the flag is just cloth, they exist as symbols to a set ideals that help guide people to a better way of life. Once people start treating the symbols with more respect than the ideals they represent, they just become another kind of worthless dogma that controls us instead of liberates us.
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  5. #15
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    The bill of rights is just paper, the flag is just cloth, they exist as symbols to a set ideals that help guide people to a better way of life. Once people start treating the symbols with more respect than the ideals they represent, they just become another kind of worthless dogma that controls us instead of liberates us.
    Or they could treat both with respect? It isn't as hard as people make it out to be. Symbols holds ideals, and for many, living through those symbols means upholding those ideals. Although.... it isn't always true.

    I do agree that symbols can end up being used as tools of control though. I mean, we are already doing that right now.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Nonetheless, it is still important to people. It tells of the place of origin, your culture, your people, how your people developed, and what became the flag. For some places, the flag tells a long history of the area. These ideas resonate strongly with people.

    It can be as important as the paper document like the Bill Of Rights. It's amazing how a piece of document or item can compel people. I see the flag as something special, one in which we continually added stars onto the flag, so it holds a special place towards the nation. It says, with those 50 stars, that we are together. With those 13 stripes, it tells the story of where the nation came away from (Britain.)
    I'm a dual citizen so the whole "patriot" thing is lost on me. I have two citizenships...both by birth. Neither flag tells me of my culture, my people, or any of that jazz.

    Though, I will say...I am quite envious of mono-cultural people. I personally have no experience in being solely part of any social identity group. It must be nice to have an identity like that...

    In fact...one of the main reasons I ran into the whole MBTI thing was because it was one of the first times I had a "group" I could identify with. The whole teenage want to belong...

    But here's for being biracial, bicitizenal and bicultural....
    I'm getting along, perhaps not as well as I wish to, but well enough in this divided world I was born into.

    Ah well. Love your country...some of us don't have one to love.

    But, what you see as collection, I've always experienced as division. People wanting me, or not wanting me, to be a part of their in-group. All I see is "in group/out group" division, of the type I've grown up with, of the type I realize now I won't be escaping any time soon.

    So, understand why at least I wouldn't give a hoot. You feel me? Whereas you've experienced your culture as pleasure...it's always been a source of angst for me.

  7. #17
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    I'm a dual citizen so the whole "patriot" thing is lost on me. I have two citizenships...both by birth. Neither flag tells me of my culture, my people, or any of that jazz.

    Though, I will say...I am quite envious of mono-cultural people. I personally have no experience in being solely part of any social identity group. It must be nice to have an identity like that...

    In fact...one of the main reasons I ran into the whole MBTI thing was because it was one of the first times I had a "group" I could identify with. The whole teenage want to belong...

    But here's for being biracial, bicitizenal and bicultural....
    I'm getting along, perhaps not as well as I wish to, but well enough in this divided world I was born into.

    Ah well. Love your country...some of us don't have one to love.

    But, what you see as collection, I've always experienced as division. People wanting me, or not wanting me, to be a part of their in-group. All I see is "in group/out group" division, of the type I've grown up with, of the type I realize now I won't be escaping any time soon.

    So, understand why at least I wouldn't give a hoot. You feel me? Whereas you've experienced your culture as pleasure...it's always been a source of angst for me.
    I mean, my parents were immigrants to America. Yet, I still identify myself as American because I grew up in the culture here. I still do think about my parents' culture along with the "dominant" culture (still do many things related to that side of the culture.) I can still utter broken sentences in their language. But I identify with America (specifically Northern California) because it was the place I was born in and not some other country that I experienced most of my life in. 1/10 of relationships (in my area) here are interracial and some amounts of them are from couples who are biracial. A lot of the parents and grandparents of the people around here came from another country or state.... and probably the nice thing about this place is the intermingling of different ethnicity around here. It is something to look at when you compared it to larger cities (through census data and maps.) I grew up with a slightly better experience of my place while growing up.

    I actually went through the whole experience of not knowing what culture I belonged in because people pushed their views of what Americans were and my parents push their views of what their culture were. I pretty much said, damnit, America is where I live, and what culture I make is what culture I'll be.

    But anyways ....I'd even be interested about where your mother and father came from. (One of my college classmate is half Black and half Japanese and I had to ask where they came from or where were they born around here.) I am quite sure a lot of people would ask you a question along those lines, around here, if you were to say that you were biracial.

    In our area, many people learn to quell tensions between their old culture and the culture we have in California (say, a Mexican immigrant moving here as a kid, but learning American culture and fitting it in the framework of what he/she learned in Mexico.) There are many things we do around Northern California that keeps some of the old culture, making them more along the lines of the current culture in California (bring foods, terms, names and such and used it as an English word.)

    For some biracial kids, they had to quell their two competing ethnicity, that it was okay to have two competing cultures and not knowing whether you belong to one, or both. A lot of them decided to learn one part of their culture when they were little, but when they start growing up, the kid started learning about the culture that he/she neglected as a child. Often times, when the person grew up, they'd take a trip to those countries just experience it.

    I can still see how not all experiences are the same, however. There are a lot of people who came here in the middle of growing up who call this place their home, but also call their old place their home.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    Were you born in the US, are you American or merely another hater of my country?
    A single person owns the U.S.A.
    Who knew?

  9. #19
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    Were you born in the US, are you American or merely another hater of my home country?
    The US flag is the symbol of our country, go ahead attempt to incite an emotional response by burning hundreds of American flags but I hope I'm present because no matter their response I'd have their back.

    While you're at it you may as well support the removal/exclusion of true red blooded Americans from military service because they indicated they wouldn't murder law abiding gun owning Americans.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzT6X3_Bg9o
    Burning the flag isn't the issue, it is the reaction that is an issue. Though there are people who deify the flag, those same people need to understand the repercussions that they are embarking on by not allowing others to burn the flag or flip it upside-down. They are the same people who say that they are fighting for America and are fighting for the same rights Americans have in other countries while not allowing for it in this country.

    Although it is also true to say that if one were to partake on burning the flag or having it upside-down, the same could be said that he/she should be aware of the consequences of partaking on freedom of speech and religion. That just because you can burn the flag doesn't mean others cannot have a gross reaction to it.

  10. #20
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My dad was a Marine and he says he fought for people's right to burn the flag. He considers articles of clothing with flag designs much more disrespectful than burning the flag in protest, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ponyboy View Post
    As another Vet, I agree with your dad 100%
    I'm a reglar 'ol civilian. Why is that?

    edit: oh, maybe you're talking about a fellar like this:



    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's possible those two marines weren't even combatants, and just had way too much testosterone, piss, and vinegar. Possible some booze. It was an emotional reaction.

    I've known some soldiers that had come back from combat zones, and there was something more mellow about them than guys that hadn't been deployed yet, fresh out of basic.

    Then again, I'm a civi.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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