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  1. #101
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Given that the SSM debate in the country currently involves many court cases including the one from new mexico SCOTUS declined to hear, and that it is impossible to untangle the Eich situation from the greater questions involved in the other SSM cases currently before the court, I found it relevant to explain why the numbers matter with regard to SSM.

    If the debate is strictly limited to the Eich case, then yes all that matters is the number of supporters in the tech industry, but this debate hasn't been that narrow.

    Forgive me if my response was beyond the scope of the discussion you're aiming for.
    We can talk about many things, all kinds of aspects connected to the main topic, but if we argue a certain point, it would be nice to hear arguments for just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    To your other point, I think think we are quickly reaching peak progressive in this country (at least for this generation). I would not be surprised to see the pendulum swing the other way from about 2014 to 2024 (that being the 2014 midterms, 2016 presidential, 2018 midterms, 2020 presidential)
    If we look at back in history, to where you were 40 and 50 years ago, then, in the larger scheme of things, I think you actually are just starting to rediscover ideas that were nearly at hand a long time ago. Progress, from these ideas forward, would look quite different from the timid forms of cultural liberalism we see today.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    To your other point, I think think we are quickly reaching peak progressive in this country (at least for this generation). I would not be surprised to see the pendulum swing the other way from about 2014 to 2024 (that being the 2014 midterms, 2016 presidential, 2018 midterms, 2020 presidential)
    Outside of politics proper, I do see some signs of that in the most surprising places and ways; although they're often undercurrents that don't receive much attention in the media. Historical dynamics are multifaceted and complex. Simplistic concepts like "progress" that some people like to banter around have not been taken seriously since WWI.

  3. #103
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I have mixed feelings about Eich's resignation.

    On the one hand, I see a fair amount of role reversal going on. Usually it's the religious conservatives who want things to play out in the business world without the government being involved. They tend to say, "it's all fine, and people can just not reward business who discriminate/refuse service/whatever." So hearing a lot of upset about how things played out in the free market (with no government coercion) seems a little ironic.

    On the other hand, I feel pretty queasy about that actual result. I don't think someone should be demonized for their political or religious beliefs in the workplace, especially if their beliefs don't have much bearing on their actual responsibilities. If there was evidence of Eich treating LGBT employees poorly or unfairly, I think calling for his resignation would be more defensible. I was very surprised by OkCupid's action, which struck me as over the top.

    Also, Eich is of the baby boom generation, and I find it hard to generate a lot of personal animus if he's behind the relatively rapid shift towards acceptance of gay marriage. There are going to be people of differing opinions on subjects like gay marriage for a long time, and I'd rather show those who disagree with me the tolerance and civility that I feel that gay folks had to fight for.

    I think this incident does show that even if political speech in the US is protected, it's only protected from government intervention. Your employer can fire you for political speech or political donations if they see fit. In some cases this seems justified from the company's perspective (if you are bringing negative publicity, for example), but it does show the limits of the US's "freedom of speech." It's never meant freedom from consequences, and that's especially true in the business world. I think that can have a chilling effect in some cases, but I'm not sure what would strike a more equitable balance.

  4. #104
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit
    To your other point, I think think we are quickly reaching peak progressive in this country (at least for this generation). I would not be surprised to see the pendulum swing the other way from about 2014 to 2024 (that being the 2014 midterms, 2016 presidential, 2018 midterms, 2020 presidential)
    I sure hope you are correct, but I fear that the leftward shift of the past 8 years is just a reflection of the demographic shift that's occuring with the 90 million millenials reaching voting age. This is why Obama's disapproval rating seldom goes below 40%. It will be very difficult to win national races since a large majority of young people (60% plus) tend to embrace socialism and other such nonsense.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    a large majority of young people (60% plus) tend to embrace socialism and other such nonsense.
    The only reason they took that side is that the pendulum was swinging that way as they began to vote. To assume they will never appreciate conservatism is to put far too little faith in conservatism itself.

    Properly realized, prudent conservative policy ideas can appeal to anyone if you pitch it right. I personally think its a very exciting time to be a conservative with all the change going on, and the nascent reformation of the party. It may be scary to those who can only see the trees and not the forest, but don't worry change is never easy and I'm seeing some really positive things going on in the GOP right now.

  6. #106
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The only reason they took that side is that the pendulum was swinging that way as they began to vote. To assume they will never appreciate conservatism is to put far too little faith in conservatism itself.

    Properly realized, prudent conservative policy ideas can appeal to anyone if you pitch it right. I personally think its a very exciting time to be a conservative with all the change going on, and the nascent reformation of the party. It may be scary to those who can only see the trees and not the forest, but don't worry change is never easy and I'm seeing some really positive things going on in the GOP right now.
    The fact is, contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as early life progressivism followed by late life conservatism. Rather, people tend to be very stubborn and stick with their political beliefs for a very long time. The only reason there's ever an illusion of conservatism coming with age is because sometimes social norms change so fast that beliefs which were progressive at the time of someone's 20s become relatively conservative by the time they are in their 60s.

    That being said, I don't make much of these polls which claim that a majority of youths support socialism. All that's going on there is a labeling issue. The powers that be in the conservative wings of this country (so, mostly the Republican party) have adopted a strategy of calling anything and everything they disagree with socialism. As a result, a great many young people just getting into politics are going to identify with this so-called socialism if they aren't hard line right-wingers.

    I really have to disagree about this supposed pendulum as a result (I don't think things can be understood that way anyhow). The center of politics in the USA has been moving right-ward since the 80s.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The fact is, contrary to popular belief, there is no such thing as early life progressivism followed by late life conservatism. Rather, people tend to be very stubborn and stick with their political beliefs for a very long time. The only reason there's ever an illusion of conservatism coming with age is because sometimes social norms change so fast that beliefs which were progressive at the time of someone's 20s because relatively conservative by the time they are in their 60s.

    That being said, I don't make much of these polls which claim that a majority of youths support socialism. All that's going on there is a labeling issue. The powers that be in the conservative wings of this country (so, mostly the Republican party) have adopted a strategy of calling anything and everything they disagree with socialism, as a result, a great many young people just getting into politics are going to identify with this so-called socialism if they aren't hard line right-wingers.

    I really have to disagree about this supposed pendulum as a result (I don't think things can be understood that way anyhow). The center of politics in the USA has been moving right-ward since the 80s.
    You can disagree to your hearts content.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    No, that's not intimidation. However, I believe 2 mayors did threaten to change zoning laws to prevent Chik-fil-a from doing business in their cities. Also, in Washington state, a little old lady is being sued by the state for not baking a cake for a wedding. In another state, a photographer is sued and threatened with a fine if he does not photograph a gay wedding. I just think forcing someone to be someplace or to participate in an event where they don't want to be (for any reason) is unAmerican.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. I agree that I don't like forcing people into events or work that they don't morally agree with. I'm not really sure how to reconcile the situation with businesses not wanting to provide services for gay weddings... it seems like it gets messy with ensuring freedom of choice from discrimination (for example, what if it's a larger business and wants to take on employees), though, and to be honest I don't understand the ins and outs of laws surrounding it.

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