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  1. #21
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is this @greenfairy?
    Edit: I am not directing all this at you, Z, just the people in the thread and the forum in general. I don't make assumptions about why you mentioned me. Maybe I look like the woman in the video or am aimilar because of the pagan thing?


    1) No.
    2) I agree with some of her points and disagree with others, and many more I find way too simplistic and gender essentialist.
    3) I am getting tired of discussing feminism in a non-academic context and I only want to if I don't have to make the same elementary points over and over.

    On that note: the first point which I will make again, because I was not exactly aware of it until taking a class on intersectional feminism is the following. Feminism as most people think of it is mostly conceived of and practiced among middle class white women and will reflect those biases. Most criticisms directed at "feminism" are in fact aimed at this group, and sometimes rightly so. The focus on adopting masculine traits and trying to supplant men in a patriarchal system, competing with them for money and power, simply continues oppression by failing to reject the patriarchal model of hierarchy and domination. We need to reject all forms of hierarchy and domination to eliminate all forms of oppression. Second, all forms of oppression reinforce each other. Racism, classism, heterosexism, sexism, etc. are part of the same system and must all be dismantled in order to eliminate one. Third, I consider myself and ecofeminist, adding that exploitation of nature is another axis of oppression and gave rise to all the others. It is based on value-dualistic thinking, and it is this thinking which is at the root of oppression, particularly oppression of women and the feminine. I am still studying this, so I don't have all the answers, but I am certain that a correct formulation of ecofeminism could address all criticisms against feminism. Also, before you judge feminism, I would suggest reading some black feminist writers. I've always thought of myself as a feminist, but I didn't realize how different the perspectives are and how intersectionality works.

    Don't quote me with some ignorant BS bigoted opinion, because I will not answer.

  2. #22
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    On a related note, I just had an ecofeminist epiphany reading one of the papers I'm using for research: The whole vertical collection of oppressive dualisms can be summed up with order vs. chaos. Order is valued more and comprises the logic of domination. Everything which is perceived as more naturally chaotic is on the side of the oppressed and exploited.

    man woman
    mind body/sexuality
    reason emotion
    culture nature
    (within nature) sky earth
    hierarchy egalitarianism
    competition cooperation
    masculine feminine
    yang yin

    Humans first tried to control natural chaos when they domesticated plants; it took hold in human cultures when social stratification occurred, and then became an oppressive system of hierarchy when state level societies formed. There is an increasing effort to control, to maintain order and resist chaos. Feminism and ecofeminism in particular aims to embrace both sides of these dichotomies, and elevate the right column the the status of the left, rejecting the value qualities of the dualism and the separation, seeing them as complimentary parts of one whole. The reason it is a particularly Western phenomenon is that we do not understand things in holistic terms; Taoism categorized these columns as yang and yin respectively, and sees the two as equal in value and complimentary parts of one whole. The yin yang symbol basically says as much; yin is chaos and yang is order, most fundamentally. This holistic way of thinking is what we think of as "Eastern" and value-dualistic thinking is what we think of as "Western". Not that Eastern societies are perfect, many of them are still imbalanced in favor of yang, but they at least seem to (have in the past anyway) understood holistic thinking.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Edit: I am not directing all this at you, Z, just the people in the thread and the forum in general. I don't make assumptions about why you mentioned me. Maybe I look like the woman in the video or am aimilar because of the pagan thing?
    I just said it cuz she looks kinda like you (I think), and because she's an INFJ.

    I didn't even watch the video. Like 20-30 seconds of it.

    I haven't been reading your posts, either, but I have gathered you seem to be on some feminist kick.

    And, well, I didn't watch the video, but she seems to be on some kind of anti-feminist kick.

    Wasn't sure if it was some specific perspective, if it was you, or what not.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    1) No.
    2) I agree with some of her points and disagree with others, and many more I find way too simplistic and gender essentialist.
    3) I am getting tired of discussing feminism in a non-academic context and I only want to if I don't have to make the same elementary points over and over.

    On that note: the first point which I will make again, because I was not exactly aware of it until taking a class on intersectional feminism is the following. Feminism as most people think of it is mostly conceived of and practiced among middle class white women and will reflect those biases. Most criticisms directed at "feminism" are in fact aimed at this group, and sometimes rightly so. The focus on adopting masculine traits and trying to supplant men in a patriarchal system, competing with them for money and power, simply continues oppression by failing to reject the patriarchal model of hierarchy and domination. We need to reject all forms of hierarchy and domination to eliminate all forms of oppression. Second, all forms of oppression reinforce each other. Racism, classism, heterosexism, sexism, etc. are part of the same system and must all be dismantled in order to eliminate one. Third, I consider myself and ecofeminist, adding that exploitation of nature is another axis of oppression and gave rise to all the others. It is based on value-dualistic thinking, and it is this thinking which is at the root of oppression, particularly oppression of women and the feminine. I am still studying this, so I don't have all the answers, but I am certain that a correct formulation of ecofeminism could address all criticisms against feminism. Also, before you judge feminism, I would suggest reading some black feminist writers. I've always thought of myself as a feminist, but I didn't realize how different the perspectives are and how intersectionality works.

    Don't quote me with some ignorant BS bigoted opinion, because I will not answer.
    Do you understand how much of a bigot you sound like?

    And by "bigot", I mean someone who is blindly ideological.

  4. #24
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Do you understand how much of a bigot you sound like?

    And by "bigot", I mean someone who is blindly ideological.
    I'm sure I sound quite arrogant, but I don't have the patience to tailor my words otherwise. Anyone has the right to be wrong, including myself, but I'm advocating having an informed opinion. If anyone would like to challenge me by pointing to sources of information I may legitimately be benefited by looking at and thus broadening my perspective, have at it.

    Edit: If by blind referring to the quoted post you mean not backing up my ideas with argumentation or evidence, sure, but this forum is not the place for it right now. I am in the process of reading scholarly articles and summarizing my thoughts.

  5. #25
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I have gathered you seem to be on some feminist kick.
    Yeah. My posts usually reflect what I've been thinking about and what I've been thinking about usually is connected to what classes I'm taking. This semester I took a philosophy of feminism class, and it made me think a lot. And now I'm busy connecting feminism to one of my other classes, philosophy of conservation biology, and critiquing environmental ethics from a feminist point of view (i.e. ecofeminism).

    (Kinda off topic, sry, just in case anyone is wondering...)

  6. #26
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is this @greenfairy?
    No she's not but they look alike don't they...? @greenfairy looks tougher...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm sure I sound quite arrogant, but I don't have the patience to tailor my words otherwise. Anyone has the right to be wrong, including myself, but I'm advocating having an informed opinion. If anyone would like to challenge me by pointing to sources of information I may legitimately be benefited by looking at and thus broadening my perspective, have at it.
    Yeah, go study economics.

    Study something that isn't just a bunch of words.

    I studied one course that was very much that way (and loved it [and one of the biggest feminists out there was head of my department]), and then I studied one "harder" course, Economics. (I also studied business, but did not major in it, as, after a while, I felt Economics was not practical enough, was a little too theoretical and up in the clouds [I loved it regardless], and that studying something a bit more practical would be of benefit to my career)

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Edit: If by blind referring to the quoted post you mean not backing up my ideas with argumentation or evidence, sure, but this forum is not the place for it right now. I am in the process of reading scholarly articles and summarizing my thoughts.
    Honestly, I think you could deal with a dose of reality thrown in there.

    The problem with feminism, including what you expressed, is that it's a giant echo chamber. Once it has to actually make it out into the real world, outside of its convenient language game, it falls apart, and is no longer applicable. In some ways, yes, it still is. But the complete and total expression of it, a la what you expressed in the post I quoted, becomes absurd. It's simply not practical, nor necessarily desirable, which is why I recommended you study Economics, because, if you were to, you would likely realize this to be the case.

    And, how do I know this? Because I've seen this all before. And I've seen a person, literally more than 15 yrs into arguing against me, about similar such ideas (in his case, it was the echo chamber of Marxism), finally actually study business and economics, and come back to me and say, "You know what, Z, all these years, you've been right and I've been wrong. Everything I was obsessing over was simply not the real world. It was impractical as fuck, and ignored all kinds of important realities about how the world actually operates, and why it does, that I didn't realize. And, frankly, that you were always pointing to, trying to get me to realize, but I just didn't understand, cuz I hadn't studied it." That's obviously a paraphrase, but it's pretty much spot on. That was after a lifelong friend of mine, who had majored in Sociology and something else, can't remember what, went to grad school, and got his JD/MBA (it was in studying for his MBA that he had these realizations). He had previously been a dedicated Marxist since we were pretty much middle schoolers.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah. My posts usually reflect what I've been thinking about and what I've been thinking about usually is connected to what classes I'm taking. This semester I took a philosophy of feminism class, and it made me think a lot. And now I'm busy connecting feminism to one of my other classes, philosophy of conservation biology, and critiquing environmental ethics from a feminist point of view (i.e. ecofeminism).
    Yeah, I gathered as much.

    Believe it or not, it's a very typical thing one sees amongst people going to college.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    No she's not but they look alike don't they...? @greenfairy looks tougher...
    They do look alike.

    It was the INFJ coincidence that made me have to ask, tho.

  8. #28
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    No she's not but they look alike don't they...? @greenfairy looks tougher...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yeah, go study economics.

    Study something that isn't just a bunch of words.

    I studied one course that was very much that way (and loved it [and one of the biggest feminists out there was head of my department]), and then I studied one "harder" course, Economics. (I also studied business, but did not major in it, as, after a while, I felt Economics was not practical enough, was a little too theoretical and up in the clouds [I loved it regardless], and that studying something a bit more practical would be of benefit to my career)



    Honestly, I think you could deal with a dose of reality thrown in there.

    The problem with feminism, including what you expressed, is that it's a giant echo chamber. Once it has to actually make it out into the real world, outside of its convenient language game, it falls apart, and is no longer applicable. In some ways, yes, it still is. But the complete and total expression of it, a la what you expressed in the post I quoted, becomes absurd. It's simply not practical, nor necessarily desirable, which is why I recommended you study Economics, because, if you were to, you would likely realize this to be the case.

    And, how do I know this? Because I've seen this all before. And I've seen a person, literally more than 15 yrs into arguing against me, about similar such ideas (in his case, it was the echo chamber of Marxism), finally actually study business and economics, and come back to me and say, "You know what, Z, all these years, you've been right and I've been wrong. Everything I was obsessing over was simply not the real world. It was impractical as fuck, and ignored all kinds of important realities about how the world actually operates, and why it does, that I didn't realize. And, frankly, that you were always pointing to, trying to get me to realize, but I just didn't understand, cuz I hadn't studied it." That's obviously a paraphrase, but it's pretty much spot on. That was after a lifelong friend of mine, who had majored in Sociology and something else, can't remember what, went to grad school, and got his JD/MBA (it was in studying for his MBA that he had these realizations). He had previously been a dedicated Marxist since we were pretty much middle schoolers.



    Yeah, I gathered as much.

    Believe it or not, it's a very typical thing one sees amongst people going to college.



    They do look alike.

    It was the INFJ coincidence that made me have to ask, tho.
    Unfortunately you're right about practicality. Neither philosophy nor any sort of pure theory is practical. However, I value the search for truth and happiness more than money. But more to the point, theory does have its place and its uses, and many people think it actually shapes the world whether we know it or not. In influencing people's beliefs we influence their actions, and actions create reality along with the laws of nature and stuff. So I don't expect things to change overnight or even in my lifetime to resemble what I think is ideal, but it can certainly be achieved by some people in some places at some times. It already happens. There are some people who live what they advocate, to the extent they are able. That's all I'm asking for. We can't give up because it's not going to be perfect.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Unfortunately you're right about practicality. Neither philosophy nor any sort of pure theory is practical.
    Mmm... physics can be pretty practical. Economics can be pretty practical. Many theories and philosophies can actually be practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    However, I value the search for truth and happiness more than money.
    This is one of the dumbest and falsest dichotomies out there.

    Just because one is realistic, doesn't mean one doesn't value truth, nor happiness, nor values them less than money.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    But more to the point, theory does have its place and its uses, and many people think it actually shapes the world whether we know it or not. In influencing people's beliefs we influence their actions, and actions create reality along with the laws of nature and stuff.
    Yes, and it's those pesky laws of nature and stuff that cause the problem.

    Those are what I recommend you should study more of.

    Fine, study your pie in the sky ideas.

    But get something a bit more realistic under your belt as well.

    I assure you, doing so will only benefit you, and in so many different ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    So I don't expect things to change overnight or even in my lifetime to resemble what I think is ideal, but it can certainly be achieved by some people in some places at some times. It already happens. There are some people who live what they advocate, to the extent they are able. That's all I'm asking for. We can't give up because it's not going to be perfect.
    Seems like you've got your own dichotomy by which you are valuing one thing (your utopic vision) and devaluing another (reality).

    By your very own principles, this is an incorrect way to go about things.

    Perhaps the laws of nature and stuff should be respected, and reality accepted.

    Believe it or not, many terrible human disasters have unfolded because of people pursuing utopic visions.

  10. #30
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Mmm... physics can be pretty practical. Economics can be pretty practical. Many theories and philosophies can actually be practical.
    Not in their purest form. Quantum physics is not practical. Anyway, you're the one who said it wasn't practical; I'm only thinking of ways you could be right. I think even if philosophy is not practical it's still worth studying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This is one of the dumbest and falsest dichotomies out there.

    Just because one is realistic, doesn't mean one doesn't value truth, nor happiness, nor values them less than money.
    I was putting this forth once again as a paraphrase of your criticism. I recognize that they are not mutually exclusive. It's just harder to make money when you have certain degrees, and that fact does not deter me. If in the unlikely event that I am forced to choose between the two I know what my choice would be; this is necessary to not be fearful and to pursue my path wholeheartedly. You might not understand that, and that's ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yes, and it's those pesky laws of nature and stuff that cause the problem.

    Those are what I recommend you should study more of.

    Fine, study your pie in the sky ideas.

    But get something a bit more realistic under your belt as well.

    I assure you, doing so will only benefit you, and in so many different ways.

    Seems like you've got your own dichotomy by which you are valuing one thing (your utopic vision) and devaluing another (reality).

    By your very own principles, this is an incorrect way to go about things.

    Perhaps the laws of nature and stuff should be respected, and reality accepted.

    Believe it or not, many terrible human disasters have unfolded because of people pursuing utopic visions.
    See, reality contains all of the past and all of the future. There is no way we can know all of the past or all of the future; consequently we can't know everything there is to know about reality, and we can't be sure that the things we take to be fixed characteristics of reality at this time won't change at some future time. We only induct that the future will resemble the past because it has up to this point. The point is, neither you nor I really knows more about reality than the other and it would be difficult to prove otherwise. Especially with regard to feminism.

    My utopian visions don't involve exploiting or harming anyone, so I think they're pretty safe. And they include me living the best life I can, so I'm safe too.

    You can call me unrealistic if you want, but what I believe has only made me happier in life and better connected with reality as far as my experience can show, and it has connected me more with people. So it works for me.

    Who knows, we may agree more in the future; but right now I think my opinions are fine.

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