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  1. #61
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No way this is valuable in any rational sense. You waste many years of your life in this state, and you will never get them back. Many people spend their whole life going through hardships of some kind, and then they die in a miserable state. What's the use of that, honestly?

    If you say that it may be a useful experience for someone coming from a well-off family, I may agree, but being a working poor just sucks.
    Yeah pretty much I'm just talking about kids from middle or upper who have never had to struggle before. I think it's healthier to do it "right" and to bust your own butt for a little while instead of relying on Mom and Dad straight into adulthood.

    That, and it's more respectable than freeriding and abusing the system - which might work out okay for a while but doesn't encourage growth or positive contribution.

    I think my overall point would be that being part of the working poor is ideally a transition stage that lays the foundation for upward mobility.

  2. #62
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    To become part of the working rich, you must generally start as part of the working poor.
    That's not even close to reality, in the US at least. Our social mobility is not great and most of our rich did not start life out poor. It's a big part of our mythos as a country, though.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  3. #63
    Senior Member OWK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That's not even close to reality, in the US at least. Our social mobility is not great and most of our rich did not start life out poor. It's a big part of our mythos as a country, though.

    It is the complete truth.

    Becoming part of the working poor is the ONLY way to become part of the working rich.

    It does not however, assure such a transition.

  4. #64
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OWK View Post
    It is the complete truth.

    Becoming part of the working poor is the ONLY way to become part of the working rich.

    It does not however, assure such a transition.
    So you couldn't start out middle class and become working rich?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #65
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    That's not even close to reality, in the US at least. Our social mobility is not great and most of our rich did not start life out poor. It's a big part of our mythos as a country, though.
    There is great upward mobility from dirt poor to middle class (think of those millions of poor jewish and irish immigrants who arrived with mere dollars in their pockets). There is less upward mobility from middle class to the rich, but that's because there are so few rich people, relatively speaking.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #66
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Some people have ethics & a personal sense of responsibility. Working poor people can be very happy provided they don't get hit with costly tragedy & have the modern basics (read: more than just shelter & food, but some enjoyable things & amenities to offset their hardwork). The difficult thing about being working poor is not having the illusion of the money safety-net. But you can realize what an illusion this is if you've had it & then later don't have it. If you don't realize this is an illusion, then you will be wracked with constant stress about it. The other hard part is likely working just as hard as people who make far more money, but not having access to all of the stuff they do because of less money. But getting stuff for free doesn't get you that stuff either, and the quality of what you do have may be lower still.

    Most people who receive government aid in some way only do so temporarily, to "get back on their feet". Many of them work AND receive that aid. The aid is just food or healthcare (both often low quality & limited in what it covers), not shelter, personal needs (ie. toothpaste), transportation to their work, clothing as their stuff wears out, & reasonable leisure/entertainment/pleasure in life.

    Someone here posted some statistics on that ( @Magic Poriferan ? ). I wasn't surprised by this, but I bet those who think most of those people are getting an easy, free ride would not believe it (unless confronted with hard evidence).

    Also: some people enjoy working! Imagine that (hard for me too imagine also :P ). Even some people like low paying work, because not all of it is a drudgery. I think people imagine when they see such people in these professions that they must be in college or have a partner/family who brings in other income, but not always. I suppose they'd rather have a low paying job that connects them to other people, may have a few added perks, & could be a stepping stone to something better, than to receive aid that provides no bridge to something better.

    -----

    I'm working poor because I choose to only work part time so I can do my volunteer work (about 15-20 hours a week, not counting driving & any preparation). But I have a long-term goal of doing some international work (likely unpaid). I think getting used to living simply without certain luxuries & doing a lot for yourself is probably a good idea for me.

    When I was younger, I wanted to be a deadbeat artist . I always knew that in reality you often have to choose what's important to you or money (or rather, money has to become what's important to you). What money buys is never as fulfilling to me as other things I can invest my time/energy in.

    I've made almost twice what I make now & the main difference is I had to budget less, didn't have as much expendable income for stuff like clothes or entertainment, and I had a nicer/newer apartment with basic modern conveniences like a dishwasher. I also had health insurance & less financial stress. This does make a big difference in many ways. But I didn't like the work & can't say I was happier clocking 40 hours/week at something I found unstimulating. I'm happier now, but have more stress. It's a weird tradeoff, but I operate fairly well with the stress & uncertainty that comes with not having money.

    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    Exactly...so why are you still trying? They make you hustle so hard for that 40k job, that many can't even get...and then they make you feel like it's your fault? Like you didn't work hard enough, didn't make the right decisions for, don't deserve for the millions they were born with? Then when you do get that 40k job, you're supposed to be happy about it? lol, meanwhile they're sitting on millions, just relaxing?

    Fuck that noise.

    I'm rich because if I'm not then I'm a havoc.

    Call it a fair trade.

    The world pays me to placate me.

    Where does all this money come from? idk, but it comes
    I do think it's true that the less you try in terms of trying to please/impress people (as it's always advised to do for finding work), the more appealing you can be. And to a point, it is like people want to placate you - but it's because you've in some way communicated that you're very valuable. In reality, they want to keep you around, because they think you do have something special to contribute, but they know you won't unless it's on your terms.

    Like I said above, I don't make much money, but finding work is easier now for me than when I was younger. Because I've decided that money doesn't matter a lot to me, I only do stuff on my terms & I'm unapologetic for being me. I used to always worry about my lack of punctuality, my sometimes quirky style of dress, my disinterest in socializing with co-workers, etc, then I decided, why even work somewhere where that's an issue? For what? Sometimes now, I have no idea why I get hired & paid to do work. I feel like I'm hoodwinking them. But I think it's some "law of desperation" thing. When you truly don't care & act/feel like you're doing people a favor, then somehow they value it more than if you're eager to please & leak "neediness".

    I don't think this will make most people rich, but you can make a living to survive without working hard in a desperate way.
    The myth that hard work pays off is a hard one to accept, since it's ingrained as a truth into most since childhood, but really the world is not "fair" like that.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #67
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That's not even close to reality, in the US at least. Our social mobility is not great and most of our rich did not start life out poor. It's a big part of our mythos as a country, though.
    This is true also. The "rags to riches" stories are sensational, but not a realistic path for most, no matter how smart, talented or hard-working.

    What's talked about less is the instability of being lower middle class / working poor, how they're a paycheck or job loss away from poverty & turning to some government aid or ending up in very bad conditions. It's easier/more likely for them to slide down than it is for them to claw up a bit.

    The middle-middle class is supposedly shrinking too, so there are far more people always straddling the line between poor & working class. Besides these are the upper middle class who must devote their lives to maintaining that niche &/or who have amnesia about how they got there & how they stay there (ie. not all their own hard work or talent).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #68
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The difficult thing about being working poor is not having the illusion of the money safety-net. But you can realize what an illusion this is if you've had it & then later don't have it. If you don't realize this is an illusion, then you will be wracked with constant stress about it.
    hey OrangeAppled... i've been reading everyone's posts (very interesting discussion)...i don't have much to contribute, except i understand OP is half in jest, but i do understand where he's coming from and he has a point.
    OrangeAppled, i didn't understand what you meant with that sentence above, but it seemed relevant (to my interests). care to explain? thanks

  9. #69
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/09/opinio...tml?hpt=op_bn5

    I disagree. I think the danger to the republic is primarily found within those groups. France circa 1790s needn't be a historical footnote, you know. It can happen again...make them aware of that. But,

    I think if you overloaded the system with "welfare queens", those "shiftless inner-city men" listened to more, then you'd see a decline in the meaningfulness of that gap...at the very least. You'd probably be brought to the negotiation table...that's all. Because, right now, they're not even listening to you..

    It's a way of taking back power...negotiating a better position for your own life.

    You can work for the system and prop up those 400 families...but maybe you can overload/break the system, causing things to change? Just drop out and over-burden the welfare system.

    Just throwing it out there.
    It certainly takes courage & a strange kind of self-sacrifice to go that route.... of course, I think the few who do it by choice may go freegan (ie "anti-consumerist"), but that won't affect the "system" much. The problem with trying to overload the welfare system is that it will just get stricter. It already has in CA because they want to kick people off. It's something like 1 in 5 Americans on foodstamps right now, and most are working age adults, not children or seniors. "The system" is just going to make it harder for people to qualify. It's not going to go down easy, and you'd have to be quite the martyr to be part of what it takes to bring it down.

    Of course, the increase of crime, homelessness, & mental illness that may result from a collapsed system or one which disqualifies many legitimately poor people will certainly cause chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    hey OrangeAppled... i've been reading everyone's posts (very interesting discussion)...i don't have much to contribute, except i understand OP is half in jest, but i do understand where he's coming from and he has a point.
    OrangeAppled, i didn't understand what you meant with that sentence above, but it seemed relevant (to my interests). care to explain? thanks
    People will stress over not having a money safety-net if they truly believe it has the value it's made out to have. They won't stress as much if they realize it's an illusion, because then there's not a sense of needing something & not having it. Part of this is seeing that money is not static, so you can't just store up a bunch & use it as a crutch in life. But people believe that it brings security & as long as they do, they will stress about it. Even people who have a lot of money stress about it, perhaps even more so, because it's a mirage & you never reach a real place of security.

    There are much better ways to get security, IMO. Building relationships with other people is one way. This is probably why gangs tend to exist among the poor. Welfare is pretty much a large scale version of this concept (people taking care of their kind, in this case, their fellow citizen), but the largeness of it depersonalizes it, I guess, so that it becomes resented.

    I'm not sure if that's what you didn't understand or not....?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #70
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It certainly takes courage & a strange kind of self-sacrifice to go that route.... of course, I think the few who do it by choice may go freegan (ie "anti-consumerist"), but that won't affect the "system" much. The problem with trying to overload the welfare system is that it will just get stricter. It already has in CA because they want to kick people off. It's something like 1 in 5 Americans on foodstamps right now, and most are working age adults, not children or seniors. "The system" is just going to make it harder for people to qualify. It's not going to go down easy, and you'd have to be quite the martyr to be part of what it takes to bring it down.

    Of course, the increase of crime, homelessness, & mental illness that may result from a collapsed system or one which disqualifies many legitimately poor people will certainly cause chaos.



    People will stress over not having a money safety-net if they truly believe it has the value it's made out to have. They won't stress as much if they realize it's an illusion, because then there's not a sense of needing something & not having it. Part of this is seeing that money is not static, so you can't just store up a bunch & use it as a crutch in life. But people believe that it brings security & as long as they do, they will stress about it. Even people who have a lot of money stress about it, perhaps even more so, because it's a mirage & you never reach a real place of security.

    There are much better ways to get security, IMO. Building relationships with other people is one way. This is probably why gangs tend to exist among the poor. Welfare is pretty much a large scale version of this concept (people taking care of their kind, in this case, their fellow citizen), but the largeness of it depersonalizes it, I guess, so that it becomes resented.

    I'm not sure if that's what you didn't understand or not....?
    replace people there with me. i think all those things. don't you need money in order to have a house and food on your plate? the alternatives you gave make you be dependent on the state (welfare) or other people. but human bonds are so frail and...surely you wouldn't want to be a burden to someone else? i'm feeling quite a bit of stress at the moment because of my job, and i've thought of actually quitting and following my dreams (e.g. go travel the world, hitchhiking, for months and months)...and then maybe see what other job i can get when i come back... but in this economy, i'm not sure i want to drop my stressful job (that kills my motivation and is full of routine and doesn't nurture my spirit etc etc) for another stress that is not knowing if you're going to have money to make it till the end of the month. cause i've been there as well, and it wasn't fun.

    oh, btw i just thought of something: another reason to work besides money: work makes you feel like you have a purpose. you wake up in the morning and you know you're part of something bigger. you work with other people, in a social structure. and we are social animals, so i guess in someway this gives us a sense of security. and also, work in most cases means someone else (boss) is telling you what to do and giving structure to your day. i guess these are all things that seem easier and make us feel secure (in an illusionary way of course).

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