User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 103

  1. #61
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Is it so bad to expect a man to be stronger than his woman? Like, am I even having this discussion, am I dreaming? Last time I checked, it was pretty standard for a man to be a protector of his lady and/or family. In fact, I feel much more in touch with my masculinity when I am playing the role of protector. I've had girlfriends in previously abusive relationships that have told me they used to hate going out to bars or whatever, but with me they felt safe. And they were.
    I am saying that while YOU feel that way, the men that tend to feel that way--also try to force OTHER men to feel that way when that's not really their personality at all. They weren't born protectors--and really, that's more common in a world where protection in the traditional ways is not really all that useful much of IRL time.

    And, while it is natural and fine for you to feel that way.. How do I help protect friends and colleagues from their own bad decisions (i.e. dating a shit girlfriend trying to beat the shit out of them via taking advantage of that stereotype) when this absolutely IS a real factor? I mean.. Men really are in a catch-22 here.
    1. If they hit the woman, they quickly become the abuser. It only takes one bruise manifesting to change a story.. and I wouldn't put it past any woman willing to hit their dates/boyfriends to flip the script as soon as opportunity calls.
    2. If they do nothing, or try to walk away, or allow another woman to step in so that the societal playing grounds are now 'even' in the eyes of the quick-to-judge... they're somehow not men anymore..

    That isn't how I would ever ever view them.. but how society as a whole does? Yeah, that's a real possibility.

    And if I'm getting beat to death, a part of me would absolutely want my lady to jump in and try to help, but perhaps (and I can't say as I've never been in this situation) I would NOT want her to, for fear of her safety.

    I'm not sure if some people realize that manlier men, get a very real overwhelming sensation of self-sacrifice to protect those they love.
    I'm sure no one wants to see anyone they care for in a real fight. Ever.
    But men are not the only gender to get overwhelming self-sacrificing behaviors when protecting those they love, for the record. That instinct is ingrained in both sexes, though women do display it more frequently towards children protection than towards male protection.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  2. #62
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    A great point indeed. I agree that men do have to work at removing this stigma. So do women. We all have to work together to make this a better world. I think that's the problem some guys have with feminism, they feel like feminism excludes them, and their issues (and for some self-proclaimed feminists it does), when really it doesn't. I think a lot of the issues that affect men, are the result of a patriarchal society messing with them. It's a big miscommunication. Feminism is not men vs. women (or at least it shouldn't be), it benefits everyone.

    Also, ftr, I did let women stick up for me, two of my besties (girls) were instrumental in getting me out of there.
    I've heard more than a few feminists say men should "suck it up and start your own movement". That's not an isolated or rare opinion. The people on this forum may not feel that way, but the people on this forum aren't exactly a great representation of the world. I view this similarly to how I view moderate and fundamentalist Christians. The moderates enable the fundamentalists by providing cover and legitimacy.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #63
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I am saying that while YOU feel that way, the men that tend to feel that way--also try to force OTHER men to feel that way when that's not really their personality at all. They weren't born protectors--and really, that's more common in a world where protection in the traditional ways is not really all that useful much of IRL time.

    And, while it is natural and fine for you to feel that way.. How do I help protect friends and colleagues from their own bad decisions (i.e. dating a shit girlfriend trying to beat the shit out of them via taking advantage of that stereotype) when this absolutely IS a real factor? I mean.. Men really are in a catch-22 here.
    1. If they hit the woman, they quickly become the abuser. It only takes one bruise manifesting to change a story.. and I wouldn't put it past any woman willing to hit their dates/boyfriends to flip the script as soon as opportunity calls.
    2. If they do nothing, or try to walk away, or allow another woman to step in so that the societal playing grounds are now 'even' in the eyes of the quick-to-judge... they're somehow not men anymore..

    That isn't how I would ever ever view them.. but how society as a whole does? Yeah, that's a real possibility.



    I'm sure no one wants to see anyone they care for in a real fight. Ever.
    But men are not the only gender to get overwhelming self-sacrificing behaviors when protecting those they love, for the record. That instinct is ingrained in both sexes, though women do display it more frequently towards children protection than towards male protection.
    Yes, I totally agree with the women and children protector. The true story (of many) that comes to mind is a carjacker taking off with this mother's child still in the car, her sprinting after it, catching up, and almost beating him to death with, haha, The Club (that steering wheel lock thingy).

    And you're also right about not all men being like that. But I guess I just don't hang out with ANY of those types of guys, so I guess I don't really get it.

    And, I mentioned this, but I had a girlfriend (psssyyychoooo, what was I thinking? Oh, the sex was incredible) that was VERY physical. Like literally hitting me, trying to wrestle me. And it wasn't because I was being a jerk or anything, I am fortunate enough to know a lot of very effective jiu jitsu locks and submissions that are very GENTLE. So I was able to find the catch-22 loophole. She'd always chill out after. I think (now) it was more of a sexual submission/domination thing, she got turned on by it. And Lord knows I shoulda ended that from the get go, but what can I say, I'm a moron.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  4. #64
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,531

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I don't deny that I had power to stop it. It's just hard to make the right decisions when you're saddled with all the weird emotional baggage that comes with any situation. I have a tendency to just dissociate from the situation when bad things happen. From a very early age I learned to leave my body, and I need to unlearn that. It's not helpful
    All this is a problem for anyone in an abusive relationship. Good that you at least learned to avoid such situations in future. Too many women (and perhaps men, too) keep repeating the pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    A great point indeed. I agree that men do have to work at removing this stigma. So do women. We all have to work together to make this a better world. I think that's the problem some guys have with feminism, they feel like feminism excludes them, and their issues (and for some self-proclaimed feminists it does), when really it doesn't. I think a lot of the issues that affect men, are the result of a patriarchal society messing with them. It's a big miscommunication. Feminism is not men vs. women (or at least it shouldn't be), it benefits everyone.

    Also, ftr, I did let women stick up for me, two of my besties (girls) were instrumental in getting me out of there.
    Good for you, and them. Yes, "real" feminism benefit men as well as women, since both are constrained by gender bias. Depriving women of opportunity and independence also deprives them o responsibility, responsibility dumped squarely on the shoulders of men. About time it is all shared more evenly, based on individual ability and preference rather than some at best outmoded role system.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Friend got arrested for domestic abuse, we'll call him Bob: Bob's girlfriend was a psycho. Bob's best galpal in the whole wide world came into town to say hi. Her real name was (fuck it like it matters) Anne. The girlfriend, Sarah literally says "Hey Anne! good to see you!" and holds out her arms like she's going to hug her, instead she decks her in the face and Anne falls into the bathtub (they were close to the door) bleeding profusely out her nose. Sarah then decks Bob. Bob, being a huge vaginer, does NOTHING. Anne says to Bob, "What the fuck!! Aren't you going to do something?" Bob does nothing, and Anne storms out the door a bit pissed at Bob.

    Bob then sleeps with Sarah, then later in the morning, when Sarah orders him to change the ipod music, she hits him in the fucking face, again! He then says, "ok you've had this coming" and smacks her.

    Was he right for hitting a women in this scenario? I don't know, and I'm not even going to go there, but Sarah did indeed call the cops and Bob was arrested and had to attend 100 hours of community service and 30 sessions of anger management.
    Bob was not right for hitting Sarah, any more than Sarah was right for hitting anyone. Bob should instead have walked out after Anne left, and refused to go back until some serious explaining and corrective action happened; or, called the cops. Instead, he slept with her, just like all the abused women who keep sleeping with the men that abuse them. It makes no more sense for a man to do this than a woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Is it so bad to expect a man to be stronger than his woman? Like, am I even having this discussion, am I dreaming? Last time I checked, it was pretty standard for a man to be a protector of his lady and/or family. In fact, I feel much more in touch with my masculinity when I am playing the role of protector. I've had girlfriends in previously abusive relationships that have told me they used to hate going out to bars or whatever, but with me they felt safe. And they were.

    And if I'm getting beat to death, a part of me would absolutely want my lady to jump in and try to help, but perhaps (and I can't say as I've never been in this situation) I would NOT want her to, for fear of her safety.

    I'm not sure if some people realize that manlier men, get a very real overwhelming sensation of self-sacrifice to protect those they love.
    Yes, it is bad to have gender-based expectations of people. It is one thing to observe statistical trends (e.g. in general, men are larger and stronger than women), and quite another to expect all individuals, or any specific individual, to conform to them. Not long ago, most women did not pursue careers, and were underrepresented in most professions; before that, they were not allowed to vote; and before that, could not own property. In those days, opportunities were limited for Blacks and other ethnic groups as well. Social standards change, fortunately for those whose lives are limited by them. It is a shame that your masculinity is so tied up in one specific role. Still, that's your prerogative, as is preferring women who want to go through life being protected by someone else. As I am sure you have noticed, there are still plenty of those around. Personal preferences do not have to be reasonable or make sense, but it's best if social expectations in general do.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #65
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ESI Fi
    Posts
    3,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I wonder to what degree this double standard is based on the infantilization of women. People do tend to assume women are weaker, less threatening, more emotional, even hysterical. A woman hitting and yelling at a man appears much the same as a toddler kicking and screaming at his mom or dad because he doesn't want to leave the park. Just a temper tantrum which men (aka "grown-ups") must weather now and then.
    I think it's pretty undeniable that woman are naturally physically weaker. But saying that, does not in any way make them "the weaker sex." There is a big difference between those two sentences. And people have gone off and labeled them the same.

    It's the same thing that happens with typology. It would be like saying that thinkers are the strongest types. In which I would reply "at what?" It's all relative. And just because someone's sensitive doesn't make them automatically weak. Every one has strengths and weaknesses.

    Unfortunately this plays a role in separating the genders from one another. And yea, I still believe there is a preconceived notion out there, that woman as a totality are weaker than men, therefore taken less seriously.

    Just like with every other problem of the world that I've typed about on here... I think it starts with our domestication process. The upbringing and schooling of people needs to be completely revamped. It no longer serves us, and I'm not even sure it ever did. I think it's the biggest problem with the world, and will most likely take a long time to change.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  6. #66
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    2,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've heard more than a few feminists say men should "suck it up and start your own movement". That's not an isolated or rare opinion.
    Oh really? I have never heard this, I hope that's not the general attitude of feminists, because that's not very nice at all. In my experience, most feminists are trying to stop "our" movement (those mra dudes), not trying to kick us out of their club. It's hard to tell, because everyone's different, and the angry stupid people always tend to stand out in your memory. Feminism has become so hard to define.

    It's kind of like how the civil rights movement got increasingly fragmented as time went on. Malcolm X and MLK were preaching very different things, but were lumped into the same movement. When a wave finally hits the shore, it splashes everywhere.

    The people on this forum may not feel that way, but the people on this forum aren't exactly a great representation of the world. I view this similarly to how I view moderate and fundamentalist Christians. The moderates enable the fundamentalists by providing cover and legitimacy.
    Yeah people on here are cooler than the normies (I know that wasn't supposed to be my takeway away from your post, but I just wanted to say it).

  7. #67
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes, it is bad to have gender-based expectations of people. It is one thing to observe statistical trends (e.g. in general, men are larger and stronger than women), and quite another to expect all individuals, or any specific individual, to conform to them. Not long ago, most women did not pursue careers, and were underrepresented in most professions; before that, they were not allowed to vote; and before that, could not own property. In those days, opportunities were limited for Blacks and other ethnic groups as well. Social standards change, fortunately for those whose lives are limited by them. It is a shame that your masculinity is so tied up in one specific role. Still, that's your prerogative, as is preferring women who want to go through life being protected by someone else. As I am sure you have noticed, there are still plenty of those around. Personal preferences do not have to be reasonable or make sense, but it's best if social expectations in general do.
    Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just a good 'ol boy from the dirty dirty south. I gotta try and remember peoples is like different and stuffs.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  8. #68
    A window to the soul
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Discuss the video.
    Ladies and gentleman, I can't stress this enough, don't settle for less than a partner you respect and admire; someone who is KIND! I don't have any sympathy for the victims in the video, as they have the power to change their situation by moving on.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Oh really? I have never heard this, I hope that's not the general attitude of feminists, because that's not very nice at all. In my experience, most feminists are trying to stop "our" movement (those mra dudes), not trying to kick us out of their club. It's hard to tell, because everyone's different, and the angry stupid people always tend to stand out in your memory. Feminism has become so hard to define.

    It's kind of like how the civil rights movement got increasingly fragmented as time went on. Malcolm X and MLK were preaching very different things, but were lumped into the same movement. When a wave finally hits the shore, it splashes everywhere.
    I don't know how prevalent that attitude is among feminists. I know my personal experience is not an accurate representation of reality, but I don't think that attitude is rare. "What about the menz" is a fairly common feminist response to men bringing up issues like these. Then they use concepts like "privilege" to further dismiss men's perspective.

    I didn't even know MRA's existed until recently, and after seeing how many of the members conduct themselves, I got the hell away.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #70
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    2,340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then they use concepts like "privilege" to further dismiss men's perspective.
    That technique really upsets me. I went to a liberal arts school which was like 70% women (and in a lot of classes, I was the only guy), and every time I said anything in Gender Studies class, I heard "check your privilege". Men have problems too--check your privilege!--I wasn't saying I had it worse I was ju--check your privilege!--nice weather we're hav--check your privilege! (of course, I exaggerate, but you get the point) I imagine they'll grow out of that though, I think young women are just excited to learn this stuff, and take it a little too far. Kind of like that annoying freshman who starts quoting Nietzsche and Ayn Rand all the time after taking intro to Philosophy. Yes, these concepts are pretty important and interesting, but learn when to apply them.

    I didn't even know MRA's existed until recently, and after seeing how many of the members conduct themselves, I got the hell away.
    That was very prudent, haha, they are an embarrassment to us all, because they're a movement based on spite. I wish they wouldn't address worthwhile problems (which they sometimes do), because the issues get trivialized by association with those clowns.

Similar Threads

  1. [ISFJ] What are ISFJs like when it comes to lying?
    By KarenParker in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-19-2009, 08:17 AM
  2. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 01-16-2009, 03:19 AM
  3. [ISFP] Why I'm a total wuss when it comes to horror movies..
    By Dali in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 09-21-2008, 09:38 AM
  4. [MBTItm] When it comes to Love and Dating -- how do you roll?
    By CzeCze in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-27-2007, 04:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO