User Tag List

First 678910 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 93

  1. #71
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    3,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby
    I don't agree on the "past" part, perhaps. I'm largely data driven (ie: current results + monitored changes) and heavily vested in evidence.
    There is plenty of evidence to be gleaned from studying the past. From studying the Great Depression, we know that protectionist policies don't work and can lead to trade wars; we know that raising the minimum wage hurts blacks and the unskilled; raising taxes is a bad idea; that big government spending programs to employ people don't work, etc. From the Carter administration, we know that price controls on commodities like oil can reduce supply/increase demand, resulting in shortages; from the Coolidge administration, we know that slashing government programs and cutting spending will promote economic growth, etc, etc.

    Everything that Obama is doing right now has been tried before and failed. Social Security got through the Supreme Court because it was presented as a tax; same with Obamacare. Medicare raised the price of providing healthcare; so will Obamacare. I'm not sure you understand how infuriating it is to see such stupidity repeated again and again.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #72
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There is plenty of evidence to be gleaned from studying the past. From studying the Great Depression, we know that protectionist policies don't work and can lead to trade wars; we know that raising the minimum wage hurts blacks and the unskilled; raising taxes is a bad idea; that big government spending programs to employ people don't work, etc. From the Carter administration, we know that price controls on commodities like oil can reduce supply/increase demand, resulting in shortages; from the Coolidge administration, we know that slashing government programs and cutting spending will promote economic growth, etc, etc.

    Everything that Obama is doing right now has been tried before and failed. Social Security got through the Supreme Court because it was presented as a tax; same with Obamacare. Medicare raised the price of providing healthcare; so will Obamacare. I'm not sure you understand how infuriating it is to see such stupidity repeated again and again.
    During the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries, we moved from an impoverishing economic theory based on usury, to an enriching economic theory based on regulated and competitive capitalism.
    Adam Smith was a Scottish moral philospher who published The Wealth of Nations in 1776.
    America needs to reread The Wealth of Nations and build a regulated and competitive capitalist economy.
    And you can look to Australia, a country based on the Enlightenment, that has been growing for a quarter of century non-stop with a triple A credit rating.

  3. #73
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    3,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole
    And you can look to Australia, a country based on the Enlightenment, that has been growing for a quarter of century non-stop with a triple A credit rating.
    Great idea. First we need to rid ourselves of those socialist Democrats in Congress. (by "rid", I mean voting them out of office)
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #74
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    There is plenty of evidence to be gleaned from studying the past.
    It's not controlled, so it's not perfect, but certainly is a major source of data!

    From studying the Great Depression, we know that protectionist policies don't work and can lead to trade wars; we know that raising the minimum wage hurts blacks and the unskilled; raising taxes is a bad idea; that big government spending programs to employ people don't work, etc. From the Carter administration, we know that price controls on commodities like oil can reduce supply/increase demand, resulting in shortages; from the Coolidge administration, we know that slashing government programs and cutting spending will promote economic growth, etc, etc.
    A lot of those are debatable in specifics and I don't believe they deserve the confidence you give them. Some are from solid economic principles (protectionist and price controls) but exceptions still exist, some are contested (minimum wage) and some are highly dependent on methodology and outputs (government programs).

    Everything that Obama is doing right now has been tried before and failed. Social Security got through the Supreme Court because it was presented as a tax; same with Obamacare. Medicare raised the price of providing healthcare; so will Obamacare. I'm not sure you understand how infuriating it is to see such stupidity repeated again and again.
    I'm not American and only care in so much as I can predict outcomes in the US. I don't really understand it emotionally... analytically I view it has highly ideological. Certainly don't understand specifics like Medicare, where the data is pretty clear on the inefficiencies of the US... yes, I realise we probably disagree on that, especially since I don't think Obamacare (wtf is even with the name, seriously, it's hilarious) goes far enough.

  5. #75
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    461 so/sx
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    An inveterate leftist acquaintance of mine remarked that "the middle class must be artificially created by the government". The underlying theme of his claim was clear: it is impossible for a society to improve the quality of life for the average citizen without empowering the government to control the economy.

    Ad hominems aside, this claim reveals stark ignorance of the history of the nascent stages of the modern society. Although the industrialists of the 19th century were notorious for providing factory workers with exiguous compensation and subjecting them to deplorable work conditions, the standards of living for ordinary citizens have improved.

    Prior to the emergence of these opportunities, a significant portion of the population engaged in mere "subsistence farming" where a minor decline in productivity often resulted in famines that wiped out entire villages. To find evidence in support of this claim, one must look no further than the Irish Potato famine.

    The grown child explained that the middle class must be artificially created by the government because the business elites invariably use technology to exploit the work-force. While that is true, the technology also empowers ordinary citizens to find more rewarding work.

    This example is not limited to the 19th century United States and Britain, but also various nations of the developing world. For all of its affronts to human dignity, the proliferation of sweatshop labor across Southeast Asia empowers ordinary civilians to work in factories as opposed to prostitute themselves or engage in the commerce of begging.

    The middle class in China and India is a phenomenon of the late 20th century. To be sure, it was not "artificially created" by the government. It is almost entirely a product of industrialization quite similar to the one that took place over a century ago in Western Europe and North America.
    Have you seen Inequality For All? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2215151/ Perhaps this person you spoke with has and is expounding on the idea.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #76
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Have you seen Inequality For All? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2215151/ Perhaps this person you spoke with has and is expounding on the idea.
    No, but I want to know why inequality is in and of itself problematic? The real problem I see is with the abject poverty of the least prosperous members of society, I wouldn't be concerned about inequality if everyone could live with dignity.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #77
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    What's with the extra 's'?

    Are you a lizardman...?

  8. #78
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    461 so/sx
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    No, but I want to know why inequality is in and of itself problematic? The real problem I see is with the abject poverty of the least prosperous members of society, I wouldn't be concerned about inequality if everyone could live with dignity.
    Rob Reich shows some historic data over the last 100 years and explains that without a middle class the U.S. doesn't do as well, overall. Hence inequality isn't bad per se, although he doesn't say that, but the effects it has on the U.S. are.

    As to your point about dignity and whatnot. It reminds me of how that is a moving target. Having grown up in the 70's and 80's I literally rolled my eyes when I heard the government subsidizes the poor with cell phones... I agree with the sentiment though, of assisting certain classes of citizens. The devil is in the details.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #79
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    No, but I want to know why inequality is in and of itself problematic? The real problem I see is with the abject poverty of the least prosperous members of society, I wouldn't be concerned about inequality if everyone could live with dignity.
    First of all, there is a fair amount of evidence that inequality in inherently corrosive (see Spirit Level for some statistics).

    Secondly, it's not clear that all of the rewards at the top are earned or contribute to the common good (even in the most indirect sense possible). For example, rent seeking seems to be an endemic problem in the modern US economy (see effective monopolies of ISPs, or skimming of high frequency trading for obvious examples).

    Thirdly, in the US it's clear that college education has become prohibitively expensive. That means that those who are less well off must incur a mortgage-worth of debt (before becoming a homeowner), or do without a college education. There's also other advantages to having more money (relationship stability, being able to provide an educational environment, tutoring, good pre-college schools, etc). All those mean that we cannot be making the best use of our human resources, since some are given an easy scaffolding leading to success, while others much surmount a steep cliff.

    I'm not for absolute equality of outcome. I think some inequality must exist in order to motivate a desire to improve one's circumstances/status/whatever. Still, the amount of inequality that currently exists in the US seems to far exceed that. Either one must believe that previous CEOs were far under compensated, or today's CEOs (and folks in the financial industry) are many times more productive than those of previous generations and thereby deserve all the rewards of increased general productivity (at the expense of the vast majority of workers).

  10. #80
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    What's with the extra 's'?

    Are you a lizardman...?
    Excuse me but we prefer the term "Argonian".

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-12-2016, 08:58 PM
  2. Ignorance must be brought to the light. It must be eradicated.
    By iNtrovert in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 08-19-2014, 03:06 PM
  3. [NT] I must be crazy.
    By Haphazard in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-30-2010, 09:16 PM
  4. I'm this, so you must be this
    By tovlo in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-02-2008, 04:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO