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  1. #61
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Use the Thomas Edison approach.
    How would that work in a democracy? Every member of parliament submits his idea of an original solution to a problem, and the one to be implemented is randomly picked?

  2. #62
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    How would that work in a democracy? Every member of parliament submits his idea of an original solution to a problem, and the one to be implemented is randomly picked?
    I'm in the US. In the US, each state should pursue solutions that they think will work. That's 50 experiments to solve the problem. What we have now is the President and his lefty friends trying to tell everyone how to solve a problem (uninsured people and escalating costs).
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm in the US. In the US, each state should pursue solutions that they think will work. That's 50 experiments to solve the problem. What we have now is the President and his lefty friends trying to tell everyone how to solve a problem (uninsured people and escalating costs).
    How will each state determine which solution to pursue?

  4. #64
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan
    How will each state determine which solution to pursue?
    Either the governor or the governor in concert with his political allies in the state legislatures. Hopefully, the governor isn't a lefty nut like Cuomo or Granholm.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  5. #65
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    This is unfortunately true.

    And from personal experience I have discovered they are vicious towards those who don't share their ideology.

    And I have formed the opinion that they are not liberal democrats.

    They substitute ideology for critical thinking.

    And worse, they have formed an historic alliance with the Islamists.
    This is true, but the Islamists have no future. They will be corroded by the seductions of Western culture. Only a small minority will survive.

  6. #66
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    This is true, but the Islamists have no future. They will be corroded by the seductions of Western culture. Only a small minority will survive.
    Mein Gott how I hope you are right about this! However, Im not seeing why you say this. Islamists seem to be gaining ground in Europe. The Muslim Brotherhood has plans to convert the world to Islam, but the fact is they aerent impatient to do so. They know that if they must succeed it will take time, they are aware of humanity's "religious impulse", and they know how to present their doctrine in a seemingly coherent fashion that is easy to understand for the masses. The only problem for them is that Islamic culture is impossible to understand without understanding the Arab language, which is a barrier for westerners.

    I hope the Islamists do fail, however Im forseeing a return to the dark ages in the next several centuries.

  7. #67
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Mine. There's a bumper sticker that says, "Those of you who think you know everything, annoy those of us who really do."
    So you don't have one that you can put into words.

    It's different because I'm right; I'm not merely echoing PC sentiment in a grand circle-jerk.
    That's sufficient for me to know that we cannot debate in good faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I haven't stated my ideology. I'm a pragmatist and my ideology is simply to do whatever works (by looking at what's already been done in the past).
    I'm extrapolating from your other posts and may be incorrect. Regardless, we match well on this in principle - I'm very much in line with whatever works + bottom line measurement. I don't agree on the "past" part, perhaps. I'm largely data driven (ie: current results + monitored changes) and heavily vested in evidence.

    I don't strongly identify with political movements anymore and the left/right divide (in the US) is just a curiosity to me. I spent most of my life being libertarian but moved away on quite a few key points over the years.

    These people believe in stupid ideas and they are able to maintain the delusion that these ideas work by giving each other praise. The media praises and supports FDR's failed policies; FDR gives a bunch of academics important positions in his administration; other lefties give out pulitzers, nobel prizes, academy awards, etc to other lefties so everyone is happy and everyone else is screwed by their stupid policies. This is nothing more than one big circle jerk. We're also seeing this today with Obama. Does anyone really think Obama deserves a Nobel Peace Prize?
    I can see that and would agree in principle. I see a lot of it even outside of academics/politics and think the description can be generalised, like with certification mills, etc.

    I disagree that this is a "left" issue, although your example is good. I see a lot of echo chambers on both sides. The right the US are great propagandists - with deliberate thought-stoppers and the like... it's engineered with intent. Those kinds of behaviors are rarer on the left side in the US, yet more present on the left in Europe. I'm not sure how I can quantify that it's significantly worse than other groups (left vs right in this context).

    I see these as power dynamics in politics more than anything innate about the political spectrum a group belongs to.

  8. #68
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Mein Gott how I hope you are right about this! However, Im not seeing why you say this. Islamists seem to be gaining ground in Europe. The Muslim Brotherhood has plans to convert the world to Islam, but the fact is they aerent impatient to do so. They know that if they must succeed it will take time, they are aware of humanity's "religious impulse", and they know how to present their doctrine in a seemingly coherent fashion that is easy to understand for the masses. The only problem for them is that Islamic culture is impossible to understand without understanding the Arab language, which is a barrier for westerners.

    I hope the Islamists do fail, however Im forseeing a return to the dark ages in the next several centuries.
    I just can't see this as likely. If the West wanted to, its leaders could wipe out most of the world's Islamists along with regular Muslims with nuclear weapons. If they were that big of a threat, do you think the West would be inhibited out of a sense of morality? I think it's hardly likely. The West does whatever it needs to to stay rich; right now that means in Europe tolerating Islamists because it needs someone to do the work, and the Europeans have decided not to have any kids, so they aren't available. The same thing will gradually happen to the Islamists. Or even if it doesn't, the West will make some reasons for why it needs to take their kids from them. Islam doesn't have a shadow of a hope of winning even in Europe, and what of East Asia, India, and the Americas and Africa? In all those places, Islam has little hope of going anywhere.

  9. #69
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LION4!5 View Post
    I just can't see this as likely. If the West wanted to, its leaders could wipe out most of the world's Islamists along with regular Muslims with nuclear weapons. If they were that big of a threat, do you think the West would be inhibited out of a sense of morality?
    Actually its already happening. The Egyptian government, which is now run by the anti-muslim brotherhood army, tried to execute all the members of the muslim brotherhood, all the ones they caught. But west cried out, and now the death sentence has been softened into life imprisonment.

    I know, nice move.


    I think it's hardly likely. The West does whatever it needs to to stay rich; right now that means in Europe tolerating Islamists because it needs someone to do the work
    Yes, the west does what it can to stay rich, including associate with Saudi Arabia. However, Islamists in Europe dont do much of the work. And most of us dont tolerate them, actually, but we're just too pussy in Europe to tell them to fuck off.

    and the Europeans have decided not to have any kids, so they aren't available. The same thing will gradually happen to the Islamists. Or even if it doesn't, the West will make some reasons for why it needs to take their kids from them.
    Not sure what you mean by that "take their kids from them".

    Islam doesn't have a shadow of a hope of winning even in Europe, and what of East Asia, India, and the Americas and Africa? In all those places, Islam has little hope of going anywhere.
    Many countries in Africa are already fully Islamized, and Indonesia is one of the world's biggest Muslim countries. Malaysia too.

  10. #70
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Not sure what you mean by that "take their kids from them".



    Many countries in Africa are already fully Islamized, and Indonesia is one of the world's biggest Muslim countries. Malaysia too.
    About the kids; Europe will say that for the welfare of the children, they must be brought up by the state. I don't think it's terribly far-fetched. That's what Germany does to homeschoolers because they say it isn't in Germany's interests to allow separate societies to grow up inside of Germany. Just take it a step further and take the kids away altogether. Or, make them attend some kind of propaganda therapy designed to make them atheists.

    Trust me, in America the religious right is Christian; the hard core of the Christian church did a separatist move and started private schooling and homeschooling the kids. In states like Texas, in the Midwest and the South, it has created a permanent conservative constituency that works to limit abortion, etc. Once this constituency gets big enough (and it's already probably a lot bigger and more isolated than the Islamist one in Europe) the American state will take steps to destroy it. No state can or will tolerate the creation of a powerful subculture which has a vested interest in destroying said state. It's not reasonable to think that this would happen. 'Tolerance' as official policy only endures because the West trusts that it will succeed in corrupting Islam and (in America) fundamentalist Christianity. If it proves wrong, before it is too late the West will declare these people domestic terrorists, and will take measures to destroy them culturally speaking.

    China and India and Brazil will not become Islamized, and they are the top rising economies. The Islamic countries are poor and unstable except for oil, and if they are fundamentalist they will either stay poor, or be kept poor by Western policy (like in Iran).

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