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  1. #81
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Police usually take someone's report that "my wife/brother/neighbor, etc. has been murdered" as an indication of foul play. A claim of rape should be treated similarly. Assuming every death is a murder would be equivalent to assuming every sex act is a rape. It is precisely in order to call police attention to those that are that we report them.
    No they don't. Bullet wounds are an indication of foul play. Knife wounds are an indication of foul play.

    What's kind of funny about you mentioning the rape kits is that the autopsy process isn't much better. Autopsies are falsified all the time in many jurisdictions in the US. Some jurisdictions are better than others, but there are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of people in prison because some medical examiner was too lazy to do his job, so he just fudged the work. What's my point? Not processing rape kits isn't evidence of rape culture any more than falsifying autopsies is evidence of murder culture. The problem is people are lazy, and power like this in the hands of a lazy person leads to bad results.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #82
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    This is one reason I avoid bars and only drink in situations when I know I'm not going to be approached for sex. But that's me. If I want casual sex I'll look online and get coffee with him. But my preferences shouldn't be the only right option for women. We should be able to drink as much as we want and accept offers of drinks without it being understood as an automatic 'yes, I want to have sex with you'. Women's bodies are automatically not anyone else's, unless it's absolutely clear that we give permission to share them. And that's something most guys don't like.
    Greenfairy, you say some pretty offensive shit sometimes. The bolded basically calls most men rapists. I guess that's better than calling all men rapists, but not by much. With such a warped, misandrist view of the world, it's no wonder you want to circumvent the judicial process.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #83
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No they don't. Bullet wounds are an indication of foul play. Knife wounds are an indication of foul play.

    What's kind of funny about you mentioning the rape kits is that the autopsy process isn't much better. Autopsies are falsified all the time in many jurisdictions in the US. Some jurisdictions are better than others, but there are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of people in prison because some medical examiner was too lazy to do his job, so he just fudged the work. What's my point? Not processing rape kits isn't evidence of rape culture any more than falsifying autopsies is evidence of murder culture. The problem is people are lazy, and power like this in the hands of a lazy person leads to bad results.
    I would consider both an indicator of a power imbalance. If a rape victim is an attractive, affluent white woman and her alleged rapist is a less well off minority man, he (or someone who somehow resembles him) is relatively likely to be prosecuted, *if* the woman reports the assault. Just as if a murder victim was affluent or somehow sparked public sympathy, it is likely their autopsy report isn't going to get flubbed up or lost, etc.

    A rape victim who is not a pre-pubescent child and is of equal status or lesser status than her/his attacker has a greater chance of bad things happening to her/his case, unless they are also murdered. I think that is because we have a cultural taboo against speaking ill of the dead.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #84
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Greenfairy, you say some pretty offensive shit sometimes. The bolded basically calls most men rapists. I guess that's better than calling all men rapists, but not by much. With such a warped, misandrist view of the world, it's no wonder you want to circumvent the judicial process.
    I don't drink, so I don't have any personal evidence about this. I would not say that most guys aren't safe, but in a crowd of a hundred guys, you've probably got a guy or two who doesn't understand and/or respect the concept of consent. That makes those kinds of situations dangerous for women. We may overestimate how dangerous, but most of us know women who have been victimized, so it isn't something we can allow ourselves to take lightly.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #85
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I would consider both an indicator of a power imbalance. If a rape victim is an attractive, affluent white woman and her alleged rapist is a less well off minority man, he (or someone who somehow resembles him) is relatively likely to be prosecuted, *if* the woman reports the assault. Just as if a murder victim was affluent or somehow sparked public sympathy, it is likely their autopsy report isn't going to get flubbed up or lost, etc.

    A rape victim who is not a pre-pubescent child and is of equal status or lesser status than her/his attacker has a greater chance of bad things happening to her/his case, unless they are also murdered. I think that is because we have a cultural taboo against speaking ill of the dead.
    Power imbalances are inevitable. What we need is more transparency. That's the best way to equalize these things. If jurisdictions were required to publish the number of rape kits that haven't been tested, I bet they'd be more likely to test them all.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #86
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Power imbalances are inevitable. What we need is more transparency. That's the best way to equalize these things. If jurisdictions were required to publish the number of rape kits that haven't been tested, I bet they'd be more likely to test them all.
    Inevitable, yes. To the degree we have them now . . . no, I think we can do better. We've proven that we can do better. The imbalance there is now between whites and blacks is still gross, but not like it was before the Civil War. The imbalance between men and women has equalized a lot in the last couple of centuries. Socioeconomic imbalances are not looking very good right now, but we do still have some labor laws and protections that did not exist at the beginning of the industrial revolution. That stuff can and does move around. Transparency can help. But something like publishing the number of unprocessed rape kits could just as easily wind up in the same part of the newspaper as the week's restaurant health code violations. They will just say the economy is forcing them to control costs and they are doing the best they can. Kind of like prison overcrowding.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #87
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What's kind of funny about you mentioning the rape kits is that the autopsy process isn't much better. Autopsies are falsified all the time in many jurisdictions in the US. Some jurisdictions are better than others, but there are thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of people in prison because some medical examiner was too lazy to do his job, so he just fudged the work. What's my point? Not processing rape kits isn't evidence of rape culture any more than falsifying autopsies is evidence of murder culture. The problem is people are lazy, and power like this in the hands of a lazy person leads to bad results.
    When resources are limited, they are applied to the tasks considered to have the highest priority. I wonder what the authorities consider higher priority than rape: murder, perhaps, or kidnapping or assault? It would be sad to think our society has so much violent crime to investigate that rape falls toward the bottom of the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Greenfairy, you say some pretty offensive shit sometimes. The bolded basically calls most men rapists. I guess that's better than calling all men rapists, but not by much. With such a warped, misandrist view of the world, it's no wonder you want to circumvent the judicial process.
    @cafe said that most men wouldn't like it, not that most would act on that dislike. Rapists are simply those who do act. Most citizens don't like paying taxes, but that doesn't mean the majority are tax evaders.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #88
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    When resources are limited, they are applied to the tasks considered to have the highest priority. I wonder what the authorities consider higher priority than rape: murder, perhaps, or kidnapping or assault? It would be sad to think our society has so much violent crime to investigate that rape falls toward the bottom of the list.
    Drug prohibition. Arresting random black males. And don't forget the police want new toys, like automatic weapons, tanks, and drones. American police are armed better than the militaries of many nations. Processing rape kits would cut into their fun.

    Just because something is funded does not mean the work is going to be done. With autopsies, people were paid to do them, they just didn't. Laziness.

    @cafe said that most men wouldn't like it, not that most would act on that dislike. Rapists are simply those who do act. Most citizens don't like paying taxes, but that doesn't mean the majority are tax evaders.
    So most men are just rapists who haven't acted on their impulses yet.

    And comparing paying taxes to rape? Okay...
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #89
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Greenfairy, you say some pretty offensive shit sometimes. The bolded basically calls most men rapists. I guess that's better than calling all men rapists, but not by much. With such a warped, misandrist view of the world, it's no wonder you want to circumvent the judicial process.
    Well I don't want to circumvent the judicial process as I've said before, but you can go on believing I do if that's what you want to do. I can't stop you. And I'm not a misandrist, but you can go on believing I am if that makes you feel good. But to clarify, I don't call most men rapists, just that most men have attitudes which are part of rape culture. It's on a continuum. Those who totally don't believe they own women's bodies tend to be ethical people and those who totally do believe they have the right to use women's bodies for their own personal reasons tend to be rapists or potential rapists. Most men fall somewhere in the middle.
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Inevitable, yes. To the degree we have them now . . . no, I think we can do better. We've proven that we can do better. The imbalance there is now between whites and blacks is still gross, but not like it was before the Civil War. The imbalance between men and women has equalized a lot in the last couple of centuries. Socioeconomic imbalances are not looking very good right now, but we do still have some labor laws and protections that did not exist at the beginning of the industrial revolution. That stuff can and does move around. Transparency can help. But something like publishing the number of unprocessed rape kits could just as easily wind up in the same part of the newspaper as the week's restaurant health code violations. They will just say the economy is forcing them to control costs and they are doing the best they can. Kind of like prison overcrowding.
    I agree with what you say, with the caveat that power imbalances reinforce each other. The feminine-masculine/man-woman gender dynamic has equalized a lot among middle class white people, but women of color still suffer a lot of sexism. Blacks are more likely to suffer rape and sexual assault than whites, Hispanics are more likely than blacks, and Native Americans are the most likely. And trans women are very likely to suffer sexism and sexual assault. People experience intersecting oppressions. I'm sure you know this, just pointing it out to people who may not have thought about it.

  10. #90
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I agree with what you say, with the caveat that power imbalances reinforce each other. The feminine-masculine/man-woman gender dynamic has equalized a lot among middle class white people, but women of color still suffer a lot of sexism. Blacks are more likely to suffer rape and sexual assault than whites, Hispanics are more likely than blacks, and Native Americans are the most likely. And trans women are very likely to suffer sexism and sexual assault. People experience intersecting oppressions. I'm sure you know this, just pointing it out to people who may not have thought about it.
    Yep and I think, even after you've gotten things improved, you have to fight just to hold the ground you've won because if there is any imbalance, those with power will use their power to grow their power.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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