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  1. #61
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I thought if the risk of being caught reduced theft, maybe it would reduce rape. Right now the risk of conviction is pretty low.
    It might. People behave differently when they know they're being watched.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #62
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I am serious about it.
    I don't think you've thought this through. In your ideal world, someone who is accused of rape would automatically go to prison. No trial. Prison. Would your rule apply to everyone equally, regardless of gender? If it did, that means men could accuse women of rape, sending them to prison. Imagine if that happened to you. How would you feel if a bitter ex-boyfriend accused you of rape to get back at you, sending you to prison?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #63
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    That's what the courts are for. To find out if the accused is guilty.
    If they are: Get rid of them--and I don't mean prison either.
    This is not a good idea. It would give rapists an incentive to murder their victims. This is why punishments need to be proportional to the crime. You don't want to promote the escalation of a crime.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is not a good idea. It would give rapists an incentive to murder their victims. This is why punishments need to be proportional to the crime. You don't want to promote the escalation of a crime.
    ...And you're more likely to get caught if you DO murder someone.
    Corpses and/or missing persons have a tendency to draw attention.

    Murderers immediately take precedence over rapists.

    And modern forensics are cutting edge.
    They WILL catch you, regardless of how meticulous you are in carrying it out.

    This is, of course, assuming the common rapist is a rational creature sans a narcissistic streak/God complex.
    9 times out of 10, that ship don't dock here.

  5. #65
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't think you've thought this through. In your ideal world, someone who is accused of rape would automatically go to prison. No trial. Prison. Would your rule apply to everyone equally, regardless of gender? If it did, that means men could accuse women of rape, sending them to prison. Imagine if that happened to you. How would you feel if a bitter ex-boyfriend accused you of rape to get back at you, sending you to prison?
    I said guilty unless there is a reasonable doubt, with a trial. And a fair investigation. Just not a bunch of interrogation of the victim; we should interrogate the defendant first, and try to find holes in his story. Ask the victim questions, but don't put the burden of proof all on her. Turn it around and have the same suspicion of him lying as her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    An investigation and provisional questions ruins victim's lives? Ridiculous.
    Victims are often traumatized by having to talk about their experiences in court in front of people in their community, people not believing them, and their reputations being ruined sometimes. Their sex lives are often ruined, and they have issues with trust their whole lives. Many commit suicide.
    Edit: There was this one girl who got raped by this guy and his bunch of high school or college friends stood around and watched and they took photos and videos. If those are still around, that could be really bad for her future career.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    Yes, and those cases are built on EVIDENCE.
    Not nearly as often for black men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    You're talking about circumventing the legal process altogether.
    I'm not. See above quote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    It isn't justified, period. People shouldn't be wrongly convicted.
    I think it would be better than the shabby system of injustice we have right now. Rape would be less prevalent.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I said guilty unless there is a reasonable doubt, with a trial. And a fair investigation. Just not a bunch of interrogation of the victim; we should interrogate the defendant first, and try to find holes in his story. Ask the victim questions, but don't put the burden of proof all on her. Turn it around and have the same suspicion of him lying as her.
    Lifetime Network isn't representative of real life.

    Victims are often traumatized by having to talk about their experiences in court in front of people in their community, people not believing them, and their reputations being ruined sometimes. Their sex lives are often ruined, and they have issues with trust their whole lives. Many commit suicide.
    Edit: There was this one girl who got raped by this guy and his bunch of high school or college friends stood around and watched and they took photos and videos. If those are still around, that could be really bad for her future career.
    I am aware of this, thank you.
    And the jury can be swayed by seeing the damage that had been done to the victim.

    Additionally, sometimes the best way to heal from trauma is to face it directly.

    Not nearly as often for black men.
    I know. I am one.

    I'm not. See above quote.
    Yes you are.

    I think it would be better than the shabby system of injustice we have right now. Rape would be less prevalent.
    Whoever said I was "for" this "system"? Lesser of two evils scenario.
    As dysfunctional as it is currently, it is infinitely superior to your version.

  7. #67
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    "Fear tactics" will not work on sociopaths or narcissists (who make up a dominant number of rapists). "Fear" doesn't register with them. Neither does anything else--their only focus is to manipulate, dominate and harm people. Consequences be damned--if it is in their path they are burning it down. THIS IS THEIR SOLE OCCUPATION. They are truly enemies of humanity.

    And they cannot be convinced, coerced or rehabilitated--in fact, they often turn the efforts into a sick game in and of itself. When they do something wrong (like rape, for instance) they blame their victims or circumstances or dismiss it with cruel apathy. They throw off accountability like a dog shakes off ticks. You can't reason with unreasonable people. It simply cannot be done.
    You are onto something here. The whole idea of deterring crime presupposes some measure of rational thought. Yes, there are people who are very premeditated about their crimes, including rapists, and who think everything through in order to avoid getting caught. I suspect just as many if not more, however, act in the moment, without regard for consequences. You don't need to be a rapist or a criminal of any sort for that approach to bite you in the rear quite hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Right now your phrasing says that the alleged perpetrator of rape is guilty until proven otherwise, which you cannot be serious about, so what is it you mean?
    If I understand @greenfairy correctly, she means when a woman reports a rape, we should believe she actually was raped. Establishing who was guilty is a second step. When someone reports a burglary, we don't start by questioning whether they are sure they were robbed. We assume a robbery took place, and start assessing the damage (what was stolen?) and identifying the culprit.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    But you do realize what kind of ordeal it is for a rape victim for a rapist to be prosecuted, right? He or she is tried nearly as much if not as much as the rapist. There are still judges that don't understand that thirteen and fourteen year olds cannot legally consent to sex with adults, even adults in positions of authority.
    This situation is indeed a problem, and a large part of what is often called "rape culture". We don't correct it, though, by abandoning the presumption of innocence and leaving blameless men open to punishment for false accusations. We correct it by treating rape as the crime that it is, and keeping the focus on the culprit, not the victim.

    Quote Originally Posted by A window to the soul View Post
    After self-defense training, Swift Kick to the Nuts 101, I'm no longer a victim.
    Actually, men expect to be kicked in the nuts. The eyes or the throat are a much better first target. Then you can go for the nuts, or better yet, the knee. That is more likely to immobilize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    There is a big difference between saying
    1) "rape is more prevalent in our society and needs to be given more attention by the public, courts and legislatures"
    and saying
    2) "our society encourages rape"
    it's a very borderline way of looking at things and fails to take into account proportion and intentionality (which make a world of difference)
    As an unhappy medium, I would say our society does not do nearly enough to discourage rape and other forms of sexual assault.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #68
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I said guilty unless there is a reasonable doubt, with a trial. And a fair investigation. Just not a bunch of interrogation of the victim; we should interrogate the defendant first, and try to find holes in his story. Ask the victim questions, but don't put the burden of proof all on her. Turn it around and have the same suspicion of him lying as her.
    So what you want is a sham trial. It's not possible to prove you did not rape someone if you were in their physical proximity. There would be a 100% conviction rate, which would be just fine with you I'm sure. It's better to send innocent men in prison (screw the families that are destroyed in the process) than to have women testify in your perfect world.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #69
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So what you want is a sham trial. It's not possible to prove you did not rape someone if you were in their physical proximity. There would be a 100% conviction rate, which would be just fine with you I'm sure. It's better to send innocent men in prison (screw the families that are destroyed in the process) than to have women testify in your perfect world.
    If the rapist is someone else, a properly employed rape kit will contain evidence to that effect.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #70
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If I understand @greenfairy correctly, she means when a woman reports a rape, we should believe she actually was raped. Establishing who was guilty is a second step. When someone reports a burglary, we don't start by questioning whether they are sure they were robbed. We assume a robbery took place, and start assessing the damage (what was stolen?) and identifying the culprit.
    Comparing rape to a property crime is kind of silly. Compare it to murder instead. When there are deaths, the police don't assume every death is a murder. Most deaths are from natural causes. There has to be some indication that there was foul play before the police investigate whether or not there was a homicide.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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