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  1. #31
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Humans go through mental gymnastics to justify their actions. This isn't limited to rape. Does this mean that there is a "culture" for every type of wrongdoing in America?
    If it's happening to that many people, yes, there is probably something in the culture contributing to it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If it's happening to that many people, yes, there is probably something in the culture contributing to it.
    So we have a theft culture? There is a lot more theft than rape. Using your reasoning, then we must have a theft culture.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So we have a theft culture? There is a lot more theft than rape. Using your reasoning, then we must have a theft culture.
    I think we have a poverty and addiction problem and that contributes to theft.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #34
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think we have a poverty and addiction problem and that contributes to theft.
    This could easily diverge into a different discussion, so all I'll say about theft is this:

    There have been scientific studies performed to test the conditions under which people will steal. People are far more likely to steal when they believe no one is watching them.

    If poverty causes people to steal, then theft must increase when poverty increases. Since 2008, poverty rates have increased and theft rates have decreased.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #35
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This could easily diverge into a different discussion, so all I'll say about theft is this:

    There have been scientific studies performed to test the conditions under which people will steal. People are far more likely to steal when they believe no one is watching them.

    If poverty causes people to steal, then theft must increase when poverty increases. Since 2008, poverty rates have increased and theft rates have decreased.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
    So do women need to wear hidden cameras?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #36
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So do women need to wear hidden cameras?
    I'm not exactly sure how that would work, but video evidence could be pretty compelling if a woman is alleging rape.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #37
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm not exactly sure how that would work, but video evidence could be pretty compelling if a woman is alleging rape.
    Why not just believe her by default?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    no one is suggesting we allow either (at least, not here. I'm sure some would). it's like comparing violent crime with petty theft. different motivations, different thought patterns


    that's not entitlement. a peeping tom is well aware that what he/she is doing is against the rules and know he/she will be punished (or at least severely socially condemned) if caught. entitlement would be if said peeping tom felt he had the right to stare at a woman's naked body without her consent.

    by this definition, most violations of civil rights could be viewed as the same thing, but they are not. we have distinctions for a reason, because we're describing different crimes, committed for different reasons, by different types of people (if you could show me a statistic that suggested peeping toms were at high risk of becoming rapists, I would be willing to reconsider) and deserving of differing punishments (again, no one here is suggesting being a peeping tom is acceptable)

    PS:this is also an Ni vs Ne/Te thing. personally, I feel it's far more useful to break things up into loose, related categories, whereas Ni wants to come to some universal "it's all the same" moment
    See, I don't think it is different. The perpetrator is still doing something he thinks is wrong, so he is acting as if it is ok. The motivation is to use a woman's body for his own enjoyment regardless of her preferences, and that same motivation is present in rape with the added component of violence and domination. The underlying principle is viewing a woman's body as not her own. Maybe it is an Ni thing, so I'll try to frame it in ENFP friendly terms.
    Fi could think about it in terms of respect. Rape is a blatant lack of respect, for a person as a person and for their authority over their own person. A lack of this sort of respect is pervasive in our culture. Calling it rape culture is rather metaphorical, but it points to the fact that some cultural attitudes are conducive to supporting rape by looking the other way, and not actively discouraging it, and promoting sexually exploitative behaviors.
    Grouping things under categories could be done according to the fact that it is a sex crime. Even though rape is not about sex, it is using sex to exercise domination and possession over another person. Behaviors which exhibit this can be grouped under things which are rape-like, thus being part of rape culture.

  8. #38
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm not exactly sure how that would work, but video evidence could be pretty compelling if a woman is alleging rape.
    I thought if the risk of being caught reduced theft, maybe it would reduce rape. Right now the risk of conviction is pretty low.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I thought if the risk of being caught reduced theft, maybe it would reduce rape. Right now the risk of conviction is pretty low.
    "Fear tactics" will not work on sociopaths or narcissists (who make up a dominant number of rapists). "Fear" doesn't register with them. Neither does anything else--their only focus is to manipulate, dominate and harm people. Consequences be damned--if it is in their path they are burning it down. THIS IS THEIR SOLE OCCUPATION. They are truly enemies of humanity.

    And they cannot be convinced, coerced or rehabilitated--in fact, they often turn the efforts into a sick game in and of itself. When they do something wrong (like rape, for instance) they blame their victims or circumstances or dismiss it with cruel apathy. They throw off accountability like a dog shakes off ticks. You can't reason with unreasonable people. It simply cannot be done.

    With that said:

    ...why do activists keep trying to convince rapists to not be bad?
    It won't work. They don't care--they completely lack empathy.

    Or better yet: Why blame "unenlightened" people who aren't as passionate about the subject as you?
    Just because somebody makes an off-hand joke doesn't mean they're adding to the problem.

    This is not a productive form of therapeutic expression or method for recovering from traumatic incidences.

    (Addendum: I agree that there are many ignorant morons out there that blame victims for abuse just because. This is wrong--this is a legitimate complaint and yes--it needs to be addressed.)

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Why not just believe her by default?
    Right now your phrasing says that the alleged perpetrator of rape is guilty until proven otherwise, which you cannot be serious about, so what is it you mean?

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