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  1. #271
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    That's a good point, perhaps I was being too extreme. Still in the case of sex offenders if we're talking about the worst of crimes (and once again I'm not assuming anything about the aforementioned case) these people show very little improvement after rehabilitation efforts. While I don't suggest that it's not worth trying, we have to take this into account. Most if not all rapists don't show any willingness to change their behavior based on ethical persuasion; they are predators. The right response is to protect other people from them and deny them the rewards of social acceptance. This is an extreme response to an extreme crime, and lesser ones or behaviors which one simply doesn't agree with certainly don't merit ostracism.
    Assuming we're assuming this guy did do something truly awful.. and having lived in a society of people where rape was a common and flippant occurrence.. keeping your enemies closer has merit still. It's an old saying for a reason. I'm not saying this guy and TGO are in that spot at all.. but even if this guy did do something quite horrifying.. it's important to keep tabs on the people you know. You cannot un-know people.

    We keep frequent tabs on my nephew's biological father because of horrifying circumstances. And sometimes keeping tabs on those people requires being nice and kind to people you don't really like for the sake of having necessary information for safety concerns. It's a precaution worth taking. I wouldn't blame someone that stopped talking to the mother for being nice to the family of the father because of principles of "omg, he did that and you still talk to the family!? Ugh!" .. But those people probably aren't people that are close to our family and love us anyways, so .. their opinion matters very little. This way, we can live relatively peacefully, and still maintain the most important thing--the safety of the children of our family.

    My point is just to show that even in bad circumstances, completely cutting someone off isn't always the best option.

    Well if that consisted of not approving of my liberal lifestyle or something, I might think that was too extreme. In any case, that's a good point. But if I did something truly awful I would expect people to not want to associate with me. Maybe it's an Fe/Fi thing? Probably. I agree either can take its perspective too far.
    Maybe so. It'd have to be an incident that endangers safety of myself or a loved one, or did something absolutely horrifying, for me to cut out someone I considered friend once. It's happened before.. but it isn't frequent, and it doesn't sit right with me when it does.
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  2. #272
    Junior Member midnight rambler's Avatar
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    Concerning the Sex offender registry there are many ways to wind up on it for the most harmless reasons. I find its best not to pass judgement on any one until the full story is revealed. Sometimes things are not as malicious as they seem to be. There is a real problem in general with people getting falsely accused of anything. @Ivy brought up the duke lacrosse case for example, the three guys were falsely accused by a woman who would go on to kill her boyfriend. The problem in our justice system is there is a guilty until proven innocent slant thanks to the media who lie and twist the facts to boost their ratings and crooked court systems. The media pretty much demonized the players when they weren't even convicted of anything . Concerning rape accusations, even if the justice department says up to 2%-25% are falsely accused, that should be a big problem. We already have a crooked justice system, it doesn't need to become more messed up by automatically assuming the accused is guilty from the get go.
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  3. #273
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm sure there are varying opinions on it, and theories will vary according to who holds them; certainly mainstream white feminism will be biased in some respects, agreed. In my intersectional feminism class we discussed bell hooks' work, rape culture, trans issues, racism in general, and a bunch of other things- so they fit together in a general context of intersecting oppressions.
    I find when feminists discuss intersectionality they STILL don't take into account that sexism has duality that racism, homophobia, and other oppressive systems lack, mainly the gender "binary" does often work against men and misandric stereotypes can be used to oppress men. The stereotypes about criminality in the US are associated with blackness and maleness along with age, I am a black male and I have personally been subject to suspicion throughout my life in many situations(in stores, walking in my neighborhood, ect), in fact about two weeks ago I was walking in my neighborhood and two young white girls of about 12 or 13 were walking in my direction, it was about 9:00 PM, they were many feet away from me but when they saw me(a kind of tall very dark skinned black man) their reaction was immediately fearful and they ran in the opposite direction, change my gender or race and I doubt I would've received the same reaction.

    There are many feminist(who like to think of themselves as liberals) that waste a lot of time outright denying misandry even exists and will reduce it to other causes like racism, classism, ect, what happens is black men's experiences is reduced only to racism but racism alone does not explain the historical gender imbalances between black men and black women like education, incarceration, police profiling and brutality, employment, ect. Even bell hooks rightful identifies these black male experiences as a combination of racism and sexism(especially in her book We Real Cool) but there are many feminists who are still invested in denying sexism against men(including black men).

    A lot of feminist like to think only women have a monopoly on experiencing sexism and there are many many erroneous assumptions they have about the nature of patriarchy and oppression, they play down the role women have in perpetrating patriarchal values and holding men to these expectations, they framework patriarchy as a class conflict narrative when this is obviously not the case, the gender issues they do recognize men have are reduced to a kind of secondary misogyny. I realize not all feminist are like this but the vast majority of feminist I've talked to share these common threads, it's that kind of self-referential, closed ideological bubble that many people get frustrated with when engaging with feminist.

    With this rape culture narrative there are many different kinds of men that are already stigmatized with the perception of being prone to rape, sexual violence, ect, the actual probability of rape for most females in the US or other western nations is still very rare, those girls who ran from me(if they thought I might rape them or mug them) are among the demographic that live the safest lives in the US and the irony is I'm in the demographic that has the highest homicide victim rate yet I am not scared the lest about walking at night.
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  4. #274
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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  5. #275
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    There are many feminist(who like to think of themselves as liberals) that waste a lot of time outright denying misandry even exists and will reduce it to other causes like racism, classism, ect, what happens is black men's experiences is reduced only to racism but racism alone does not explain the historical gender imbalances between black men and black women like education, incarceration, police profiling and brutality, employment, ect. Even bell hooks rightful identifies these black male experiences as a combination of racism and sexism(especially in her book We Real Cool) but there are many feminists who are still invested in denying sexism against men(including black men).
    Words like misandry and misogyny imply a certain intent: usually hatred, dislike, or mistrust. This leads to arguments that are beside the point of the effects of the practices under discussion. This is why I prefer the term "gender bias". It makes no assumptions about intent, but focuses on effect: someone is being judged or limited because of their gender, whether male or female. The fact that men have historically been in the position of greater power does not make them immune to negative effects of gender bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    A lot of feminist like to think only women have a monopoly on experiencing sexism and there are many many erroneous assumptions they have about the nature of patriarchy and oppression, they play down the role women have in perpetrating patriarchal values and holding men to these expectations, they framework patriarchy as a class conflict narrative when this is obviously not the case, the gender issues they do recognize men have are reduced to a kind of secondary misogyny.
    The highlighted does not get anywhere near the attention it deserves. It is always discouraging to see how readily women themselves fuel the assumptions and practices that serve to limit them.
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  6. #276
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    In Game of Thrones, there has been just about every type of violence imaginable. But what has really outraged people recently? An ambiguous rape scene.

    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #277
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Number one, that scene wasn't ambiguous at all (in the book it was a little ambiguous but the scene in the show was anything but), and number two, it was an increasingly sympathetic character who committed it, one we're apparently supposed to be forming some respect for.

  8. #278
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Number one, that scene wasn't ambiguous at all (in the book it was a little ambiguous but the scene in the show was anything but), and number two, it was an increasingly sympathetic character who committed it, one we're apparently supposed to be forming some respect for.
    The writers disagree with you and they're the ones who get to decide what was going on in the heads of the characters, not you or any other viewers.

    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #279
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I wish we had more fictional narratives for entertainment which did not involve violence or rape, but which still dealt with real world issues in an intellectual way. One can dream...

  10. #280
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Personally I refuse to watch anything with a rape scene. Or I'll skip over it.

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