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  1. #261
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I explicitly said I don't know what he did. If he did something stupid being friends with him is fine. BUT, if not, if he raped some person or something like that, no one should be friends with him and if a person is they are probably condoning whatever he did. That does say something about someone's character.
    no, it doesn't. plenty of good people have friends who have done horrible things. it doesn't say anything about them (other than perhaps a misplaced sense of loyalty).

    Note the "IF". Don't make assumptions. I'm not going to assume he is innocent any more than that he is guilty. I don't know what he did, I don't know if he is guilty, I don't know if I would even believe him if TGO or he himself said he wasn't guilty because I wasn't there and I don't know the circumstances of the case.
    you are being unreasonably suspicious and passive-aggressively attempting to character assassinate for the sake of discrediting your opposition rather than his argument.

    Since you don't know even know what he did, automatically defending him because he is a friend of a friend is just as problematic as assuming he is guilty
    I am defending @The Great One because he is a good friend of mine. he is a strong, moral person whom I have a lot of respect for and when you throw insults and accusations (both direct and indirect) at him, it pisses me off. if you want to debate, debate, but keep that shit from getting personal about my friends, cuz you will answer to me.
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  2. #262
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    no, it doesn't. plenty of good people have friends who have done horrible things. it doesn't say anything about them (other than perhaps a misplaced sense of loyalty).
    I disagree here, but it's a fair point.

    Edit: Actually I think it's important. Who your friends are says something about whether you support their actions. And not criticizing people's actions and interfering when they try to rape someone is a huge part of rape culture and why things are the way they are. Men need to hold other men accountable for their actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    you are being unreasonably suspicious and passive-aggressively attempting to character assassinate for the sake of discrediting your opposition rather than his argument.
    Maybe. But my point is that he is unreasonably paranoid, which is not any better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I am defending @The Great One because he is a good friend of mine. he is a strong, moral person whom I have a lot of respect for and when you throw insults and accusations (both direct and indirect) at him, it pisses me off. if you want to debate, debate, but keep that shit from getting personal about my friends, cuz you will answer to me.
    Ok. But I don't know him personally so I don't yet trust him. My distrust is just as valid as your trust. Suspending judgment on someone is not the same as assuming guilt. Basic logical concept. Saying I don't know means I entertain both possibilities.

  3. #263
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    @Elfboy, this is exactly the sort of mindset that supports rape culture and I'm not going to sugar coat it because you need to see it.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
    ^the latter refers to your attacks on TGO, not this post specifically

    You are automatically leaping to the defense of someone just because he is a friend of a friend, so you assume that 1) this makes him a good person and that 2) kind of decent people don't ever rape anyone. That second assumption is just plain false. So many defenses of the accused, especially of young men center around how they "seemed like such nice people" and they got good grades, were star athletes, had their whole lives ahead of them, everyone liked them, blah blah blah. Rapists can be nice to their friends, likable, charismatic, etc., just as serial killers can. What about the victim, if there was one? Do you know her/him? Does this person have just as many good qualities and friends who will leap to her defense and say she isn't lying? Maybe there isn't a victim in this case, but this scenario exists in cases where there is one, and it just becomes a situation of who and how many people stand up for someone just based on how popular they are. The accused should always be evaluated based on actual evidence, not subjective feelings of loyalty. A person's character does come into it, as in if they have characteristic patterns of behavior of people who actually commit these crimes, but you can't base a conviction or a lack thereof just based on subjectivity and values.
    I automatically jump to defend a friend because your paranoid, witch hunting ass has absolutely no grounds upon which to accuse him of anything (like, if he had actually been convicted of something, I would obviously listen to the opposing side, but your comments weren't based on a goddamn thing other than "he has a friend who is a sex offender"). where the hell do you get off? (people are routinely slapped for less disrespect)
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  4. #264
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
    ^the latter refers to your attacks on TGO, not this post specifically


    I automatically jump to defend a friend because your paranoid, witch hunting ass has absolutely no grounds upon which to accuse him of anything (like, if he had actually been convicted of something, I would obviously listen to the opposing side, but your comments weren't based on a goddamn thing other than "he has a friend who is a sex offender"). where the hell do you get off? (people are routinely slapped for less disrespect)
    Ok, this is going to go to PM because it's a personal misunderstanding and getting heated, which is not related to the thread. I've said my piece and you've said yours, which are related to the thread topic.

  5. #265
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    Another thread for the perpetually offended

  6. #266
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I automatically jump to defend a friend because your paranoid, witch hunting ass has absolutely no grounds upon which to accuse him of anything (like, if he had actually been convicted of something, I would obviously listen to the opposing side, but your comments weren't based on a goddamn thing other than "he has a friend who is a sex offender"). where the hell do you get off? (people are routinely slapped for less disrespect)
    For the record by defending "him" I am referring to his friend. It seems like you are doing this. If you are defending TGO's right to be friends with whomever he wants, I'm calling this into question. As for defending TGO himself, whatever. I'm not saying he's guilty of anything because I don't know if his friend is guilty of anything morally reprehensible. You just can't assume that, and assuming the innocence of someone you don't know, i.e. his friend, if that is what you are doing, is really bad because it supports rape culture. See my point? Thew most I would be accusing him of is supporting a rapist and thus indirectly supporting rape, and this is is not in any way proven or assumed as I don't know what the guy did.

  7. #267
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Another thread for the perpetually offended
    Fighting for justice is not about being personally offended, as issues of social justice are by definition not just the personal feelings of individuals.

    I doubt rape victims would characterize their feelings of desiring social justice and change as being mere offense.

  8. #268
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    For the record by defending "him" I am referring to his friend. It seems like you are doing this. If you are defending TGO's right to be friends with whomever he wants, I'm calling this into question. As for defending TGO himself, whatever. I'm not saying he's guilty of anything because I don't know if his friend is guilty of anything morally reprehensible. You just can't assume that, and assuming the innocence of someone you don't know, i.e. his friend, if that is what you are doing, is really bad because it supports rape culture. See my point? Thew most I would be accusing him of is supporting a rapist and thus indirectly supporting rape, and this is is not in any way proven or assumed as I don't know what the guy did.
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  9. #269
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I disagree here, but it's a fair point.

    Edit: Actually I think it's important. Who your friends are says something about whether you support their actions. And not criticizing people's actions and interfering when they try to rape someone is a huge part of rape culture and why things are the way they are. Men need to hold other men accountable for their actions.
    I had this discussion elsewhere. Ostracizing people is not really the most effective way of getting better behavior out of a person. I never knew a kid who was bullied for, say, being quiet, that was more talkative after people bullied them and threw them out to the wind for being bullied by others. It'd be far more effective to support them despite disagreeing with them, and trying to help them grow as a person by continuing to maintain contact and respect, leading by example, and trying to gently pull them into a realm of more suitable behavior. Change is slow. People have to make decisions for themselves. And eventually, the people you surround yourself with speak about you, yes.. but not to the extent that you're describing.

    I have friends that have cheated on their spouses. Does that make me a cheater? It is their personal life, which I have no say in, nor control in.. I don't control their moralities, they have never done me personal harm and have helped me in a loving and caring fashion on several occasions, and I don't have an in depth look into their personal affairs. But I am their friend, and I don't think telling them "Uh.. sorry. I don't be friends with garbage men that cheat on their wives." is really going to fix anything for anyone. It won't change the cheating, it won't fix their relationship... But maybe if I am their friend, and I talk to them long enough.. maybe they'll realize through conversation that maybe their relationship isn't the one they want in life. And that'd be far more productive.

    I don't believe in quitting on people the second they do something insulting. It'd have to be series of pretty harsh actions that personally affect me in one way or another for me to just throw my hands in the air.

    I think people are far too flippant and petty about friendship now-a-days. And this moralistic code is an example. There are probably people you are friends with that don't agree with your actions at times--probably especially when you were younger--and have not given up on you. I'd extend the same courtesies to others on principle.
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  10. #270
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I had this discussion elsewhere. Ostracizing people is not really the most effective way of getting better behavior out of a person. I never knew a kid who was bullied for, say, being quiet, that was more talkative after people bullied them and threw them out to the wind for being bullied by others. It'd be far more effective to support them despite disagreeing with them, and trying to help them grow as a person by continuing to maintain contact and respect, leading by example, and trying to gently pull them into a realm of more suitable behavior. Change is slow. People have to make decisions for themselves. And eventually, the people you surround yourself with speak about you, yes.. but not to the extent that you're describing.

    I have friends that have cheated on their spouses. Does that make me a cheater? It is their personal life, which I have no say in, nor control in.. I don't control their moralities, they have never done me personal harm and have helped me in a loving and caring fashion on several occasions, and I don't have an in depth look into their personal affairs. But I am their friend, and I don't think telling them "Uh.. sorry. I don't be friends with garbage men that cheat on their wives." is really going to fix anything for anyone. It won't change the cheating, it won't fix their relationship... But maybe if I am their friend, and I talk to them long enough.. maybe they'll realize through conversation that maybe their relationship isn't the one they want in life. And that'd be far more productive.

    I don't believe in quitting on people the second they do something insulting. It'd have to be series of pretty harsh actions that personally affect me in one way or another for me to just throw my hands in the air.
    That's a good point, perhaps I was being too extreme. Still in the case of sex offenders if we're talking about the worst of crimes (and once again I'm not assuming anything about the aforementioned case) these people show very little improvement after rehabilitation efforts. While I don't suggest that it's not worth trying, we have to take this into account. Most if not all rapists don't show any willingness to change their behavior based on ethical persuasion; they are predators. The right response is to protect other people from them and deny them the rewards of social acceptance. This is an extreme response to an extreme crime, and lesser ones or behaviors which one simply doesn't agree with certainly don't merit ostracism.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think people are far too flippant and petty about friendship now-a-days. And this moralistic code is an example. There are probably people you are friends with that don't agree with your actions at times--probably especially when you were younger--and have not given up on you. I'd extend the same courtesies to others on principle.
    Well if that consisted of not approving of my liberal lifestyle or something, I might think that was too extreme. In any case, that's a good point. But if I did something truly awful I would expect people to not want to associate with me. Maybe it's an Fe/Fi thing? Probably. I agree either can take its perspective too far.

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