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  1. #241
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Um, the Justice Department? Other statistics estimate up to 25%, but that's still really low. And the fact that many rapes aren't reported shows that if every actual rape was reported and the rate of false accusations stayed the same, it would be about 2%.
    Whatever, blah blah blah paranoid bs. You should stop driving cars too in case you get killed.
    no, that is definitely NOT low. that means that, if someone is getting tried for rape, there is a 25% chance that said person is innocent. at the very least, this would mean that the courts need to consider convictions of rape VERY carefully from both sides (which should already be the norm for any conviction. a one sided justice system is a corrupt justice system).


    Wow, you really sympathize with sex offenders. Do you know any personally? Are you afraid of becoming one? I think all this is perfectly legitimate if they are an actual sex offender. And the percentage of people who are falsely convicted is like, probably less than 2%, considering that false accusations are 2% and the percentage of people accused who are convicted is really low. This is lower than the risk of false car theft charges or false murder charges or probably false any other charges. The risk of being falsely accused AND falsely convicted and then jailed is so small as to be laughable. Do you avoid driving a car because of the risk that you might be killed? Your life is ruined if you're dead too. And the risk is way higher. I think even if things were changed according tot he radical interpretation of my view it might approach something like the risk of false murder claims at most. Which are strongly influenced by race and class btw. You are really really paranoid, and about things it's totally irrational to be paranoid about.
    this is a potentially harmful and incredibly disrespectful accusation to make about someone simply on the grounds of a dissenting opinion (and don't try to say you didn't accuse him, because it was obvious). I understand this is something you feel strongly about, but you need to check yourself hun.

    frankly, this is starting to sound like a 21st century equivalent to the Salem Witch Trials. no one on this entire thread has expressed sympathy for rapists, what we are expressing is a belief that the justice system cannot be circumvented on account of fear or anger which cloud the judgment of everyone involved and leads to false convictions based on paranoia.
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  2. #242
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    no, that is definitely NOT low. that means that, if someone is getting tried for rape, there is a 25% chance that said person is innocent. at the very least, this would mean that the courts need to consider convictions of rape VERY carefully from both sides (which should already be the norm for any conviction. a one sided justice system is a corrupt justice system).
    I think it's still pretty low, as in 75% of the time the accuser is telling the truth- which does not correspond with the fact that not that many rapes are reported and not that many rapists are convicted or properly sentenced. We need to work on that as a culture as being more important than worrying about false rape accusations. Yes we should worry about them, but not to the degree we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    this is a potentially harmful and incredibly disrespectful accusation to make about someone simply on the grounds of a dissenting opinion (and don't try to say you didn't accuse him, because it was obvious). I understand this is something you feel strongly about, but you need to check yourself hun.

    frankly, this is starting to sound like a 21st century equivalent to the Salem Witch Trials. no one on this entire thread has expressed sympathy for rapists, what we are expressing is a belief that the justice system cannot be circumvented on account of fear or anger which cloud the judgment of everyone involved and leads to false convictions based on paranoia.
    I was just telling him he's really paranoid and making a sarcastic remark. I don't actually believe he's a rapist, but the degree of paranoia expressed in his posts and him saying over and over again that being a sex offender is THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE EVER would be something a sex offender would say. And I don't know anyone here personally- maybe some people on this website are rapists. Statistically, it's likely. How should I know? If I was as paranoid as TGO is about false rape accusations I WOULD be assuming that anyone here is a potential or actual rapist, just like he's assuming that ANY woman is a potential liar who would accuse a guy of rape. What's the difference? Either someone is a rapist or someone is a liar.

    This paranoia actually is symptomatic of rape culture, btw; we're so afraid of a woman telling a lie we're willing to ignore it when most women get raped.

  3. #243
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I've gotta be honest, I'm very much on board with the premise that there is a culture of violence and rape and that we are not teaching our youth about sexual consent, both boys and girls, and that there is a terrible tendency to put rape victims on trial to a far, far greater degree than other victims that I agree needs to stop. (And I agree with pretty much everything @cafe has said in this thread.) But @greenfairy, I do think you are being a little flip about the prospect of being falsely accused of rape/sex offense. That's scary even to me, and as a former childcare provider I did think about it regularly. We don't need to minimize the impact of one evil to point out the impact of another.

    Edited to add: it was the parents I sometimes worried about falsely accusing me, not the kids. If they decided they didn't like me what would stop them from saying I touched their kid to get out of paying me?

  4. #244
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    We don't need to minimize the impact of one evil to point out the impact of another.
    This is really the end of thread quote, for me.
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  5. #245
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I've gotta be honest, I'm very much on board with the premise that there is a culture of violence and rape and that we are not teaching our youth about sexual consent, both boys and girls, and that there is a terrible tendency to put rape victims on trial to a far, far greater degree than other victims that I agree needs to stop. (And I agree with pretty much everything @cafe has said in this thread.) But @greenfairy, I do think you are being a little flip about the prospect of being falsely accused of rape/sex offense. That's scary even to me, and as a former childcare provider I did think about it regularly. We don't need to minimize the impact of one evil to point out the impact of another.

    Edited to add: it was the parents I sometimes worried about falsely accusing me, not the kids. If they decided they didn't like me what would stop them from saying I touched their kid to get out of paying me?
    I'm sorry, I just don't think it's really worth worrying about. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion. A thorough investigation would find out pretty quickly. It doesn't justify all the fear going on. And interesting you and TGO are both 6. I think we just need to be less fearful as a society and more loving and supportive to one another. Fear keeps people from enacting justice (and produces it) just as much as it protects people from injustice.

  6. #246
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm sorry, I just don't think it's really worth worrying about. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my opinion. A thorough investigation would find out pretty quickly.
    Maybe, maybe not. There was a pretty famous case here where I live that involved one disturbed person falsely accusing several members of the Duke University lacrosse team of raping her at a party. It was HUGE around here and for months and months it elicited a lot of ire towards the players she accused. It took over a year for them to be exonerated, and the DA who headed up the case had to step down. (The accuser was later convicted of murdering her boyfriend.)

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It doesn't justify all the fear going on. And interesting you and TGO are both 6. I think we just need to be less fearful as a society and more loving and supportive to one another. Fear keeps people from enacting justice (and produces it) just as much as it protects people from injustice.
    I don't agree with TGO about almost anything and I don't agree with him about this, but I don't agree with your flip approach, either. It's not loving or supportive to falsely accuse someone of a sex crime.

  7. #247
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @greenfairy
    I was just telling him he's really paranoid and making a sarcastic remark. I don't actually believe he's a rapist, but the degree of paranoia expressed in his posts and him saying over and over again that being a sex offender is THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE EVER would be something a sex offender would say.
    I happen to know @The Great One IRL (we speak a lot actually). his father is a felon (cuz he got screwed over by his aunt, long story) and he has a friend who is a registered sex offender who took more than 5 years to find a new job, so his paranoia is somewhat rational imo, because being a registered sex offender looks worse on one's permanent record than being a murderer


    And I don't know anyone here personally- maybe some people on this website are rapists. Statistically, it's likely. How should I know? If I was as paranoid as TGO is about false rape accusations I WOULD be assuming that anyone here is a potential or actual rapist, just like he's assuming that ANY woman is a potential liar who would accuse a guy of rape. What's the difference? Either someone is a rapist or someone is a liar.
    This paranoia actually is symptomatic of rape culture, btw; we're so afraid of a woman telling a lie we're willing to ignore it when most women get raped.
    I think all he's saying is, both happen (rape and false accusations), so it's important to view such matters with a level head and that it's better that a few guilty offenders go free rather than the same number of innocent people being convicted (though I agree that we do need to find ways to make the system more efficient).
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  8. #248
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    The fear of false rape accusations is very out of proportion to their estimated existence, but as Ivy said, it's possible to acknowledge that while not totally dismissing the fact that false rape accusations are scary. We shouldn't let the fear of either possibility distract us from asking the questions that need to be asked. And I don't care what ultimately ends up being true, when someone says they were raped, or even if they say they think they might have been raped, the correct response, 100% of the time, is:

    1. Are you okay?

    2. Do you want to talk about it?

    3. What do you think you’ll do about that?

    4. Can I help with anything?

    And not, "Well, think really carefully about whether or not you want to move forward with this, because you were kinda drunk that night, everyone witnessed it, and this could totally ruin this poor guy's life. So where's your evidence?"
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  9. #249
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    The fear of false rape accusations is very out of proportion to their estimated existence, but as Ivy said, it's possible to acknowledge that while not totally dismissing the fact that false rape accusations are scary. We shouldn't let the fear of either possibility distract us from asking the questions that need to be asked. And I don't care what ultimately ends up being true, when someone says they were raped, or even if they say they think they might have been raped, the correct response, 100% of the time, is:

    1. Are you okay?

    2. Do you want to talk about it?

    3. What do you think you’ll do about that?

    4. Can I help with anything?

    And not, "Well, think really carefully about whether or not you want to move forward with this, because you were kinda drunk that night, everyone witnessed it, and this could totally ruin this poor guy's life. So where's your evidence?"
    Yes to all of this. I do think rape accusations are much rarer than the fear of them belies but it DOES happen, and that DOES suck. If I believed in hell I'd also believe there would be a special place there for those who falsely accuse others of rape, since not only does it affect the object of the accusation, it also undermines the credibility of real rape victims.

  10. #250
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @greenfairy

    I happen to know @The Great One IRL (we speak a lot actually). his father is a felon (cuz he got screwed over by his aunt, long story) and he has a friend who is a registered sex offender who took more than 5 years to find a new job, so his paranoia is somewhat rational imo, because being a registered sex offender looks worse on one's permanent record than being a murderer
    I can't help but think that if someone is a sex offender there's something wrong with someone who is friends with him. Sex offenders pretty much deserve what they get. Unless his friend is one of the innocent and falsely accused. In which case that really sucks, but even so you can't use one incident to color your view of an entire situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I think all he's saying is, both happen (rape and false accusations), so it's important to view such matters with a level head and that it's better that a few guilty offenders go free rather than the same number of innocent people being convicted (though I agree that we do need to find ways to make the system more efficient).
    It might be better to let a few go free, but the fact is we are so concerned right now that we let most of them go free. And the few who are responsible are responsible for the vast majority if rapes. It's a relatively small number of the population, but if we could get them we would drastically reduce the incidence. I understand what you're saying, and I don't suggest we should just assume every accused person is guilty, just assume that the victim is telling the truth that s/he was in fact raped and that the likelihood of hir lying is low. This doesn't happen nearly often enough, so just getting to this point would be a huge change in mentality and would require releasing some fear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yes to all of this. I do think rape accusations are much rarer than the fear of them belies but it DOES happen, and that DOES suck. If I believed in hell I'd also believe there would be a special place there for those who falsely accuse others of rape, since not only does it affect the object of the accusation, it also undermines the credibility of real rape victims.
    Agreed.

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