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  1. #231
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Reread what? The post where you said a lack of empathy isn't a problem? The post where you said it's better for innocent men to go to prison than for women to have to testify? The post where you said we should replace innocent until proven guilty with guilty until proven innocent when dealing with rape? I'm not sure which of your incredibly wise posts I should reread. It's probably because I'm so out-of-touch with reality.
    Yep. Because you clearly don't know what words mean, as you misread all of them.

    This is you:
    "Blah blah false claim false claim blah blah logical fallacy blah straw man slippery slope blah blah logical fallacy blah. And more blah."

  2. #232
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    1. All statistics used are at the extreme of a range. All of the statistics sited have a range, and rather than choosing something in the middle, the author chose the extreme that best supports her ideology. 2. This graphic assumes that all men who are acquitted of rape are actually guilty and get away with it.
    3. The range used for false rape claims is low. There is actually no evidence for a 2% false rape claim rate. The FBI did report 8% one year, and another year they reported 15% of rape claims were false. I don't remember the years of those reports, sorry. I only point them out to show the lack of precision with this statistic. A 1996 report of DNA analysis found that between 20-25% of men accused of rape were exonerated by DNA. Another ~20% were inconclusive.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt



    25% sounds kind of high to me for false rape claims (probably because I've been told over and over that the number is super low), but I don't really know. What goes through the mind of a real rape victim who wants to report a rape and someone who is making a false accusation are two completely different things. They're two completely different mindsets.
    How does you know the statistics are all in the extreme range? Is it just based on the link you posted, or what? Following the data from the Department of Justice, I'm not seeing this discrepancy, and in some cases even the embedding sites that Mempy linked to identify the low end estimates.


    What is the best range you could come up with? Is it one that makes a situation where a dilemma that exists between addressing rape or false rape accusations is a toss up or leans toward addressing false rape accusations? I'm not seeing that here.

    Another interesting thing to me is that the definition of rape they are working with seems like it would fail to include instances of rape that do not involve force and situations where a woman cannot give or deny consent, in other words, situations involving the application of drugs (a method quite popular with fraternities). This might actually under report because of that. "Using a definition of rape that includes attempted and completed vaginal, oral, and anal penetration achieved through the use or threat of force,"

    Another interesting thing that I'm surprised the articles didn't hoot more about is that the number of rapes well exceeds the number of victims because so many women are raped multiple times. When you think of it on a per perpetration basis, the statistics looks even worse than they are made out to be here.

    Nothing you've said or linked can even address the issue of incidences vs reports, or reports vs prosecutions, it can only address a possible discrepancy in prosecutions vs convictions, meaning it misses a very large part of the problem.

    You are correct that the relationship between the infographic and the DoC report seems to assume everyone not prosecuted was still guilty. Perhaps they make that assumption based on the false accusation rate. So that's the last big detail. Where did that come from?

    The source given for that strikes me as less dependable, and the subject it is addressing is obviously harder to determine. However, suspending the accuracy of their exact estimates for a moment, the source notes that the FBI's own definition of a false report, one demonstrated to be false through investigation, is what comes out around to their estimate, while data based merely on the conclusions of law authorities yield much higher results, but notably they very frequently don't actually bother to investigate.
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  3. #233
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Magic, you could look at the link in the graphic. The Enliven Project made the graphic and it has a website (link in the graphic).

    With unreported rape sources: Ignore the source that says 75-95% of rapes go unreported because that's not even from the US, so it should be tossed out. The linked DOJ sources say 27% of rapes were reported in 2011 and 49% were reported in 2010. So what does the author of the graphic do? They assume a 10% reporting rate. That figure is just pulled out of the air and significantly worse than what can be supported using the DOJ sources. If they were trying to be honest, they should have used something like a 33% reporting rate, not 10%, which isn't even in the DOJ range. But 10% was chosen because of its emotional impact, much like Fox News manipulating its graphics about Obamacare signups.

    With false accusations, they link a non-governmental site that says false claims account for 2-8% of reported rapes. So they use the 2% figure. The source they use for the 2-8% figure is heavily biased. It's a group clearly advocating for more prosecutions, that has an incentive to minimize the number of false claims. The link I gave is from an unbiased government source, from DNA testing in rape trials. But DNA is a notorious supporter of Rape Culture and the Patriarchy, so that must be why you find it unreliable.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #234
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I wasn't proposing diluting the burden of proof, but reinvisioning a different approach to measuring standard of proof.
    What is this different approach, that is not a dilution of the burden of proof currently in place regarding people accused of rape (and other crimes)? And if it is not a dilution, how does it address the inherent difficulty in prosecuting rape cases? My understanding was that you object to standards based on the 'better for 10 guilty people go free rather than one innocent person be convicted' principle, especially for rape cases which are already more difficult to prove than other violent crimes.

  5. #235
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @greenfairy

    I think Coriolis said it best, something about changing our attitudes to not blame the victim and give hir a greater measure of credibility. You can find the post. I'm too lazy. At present we doubt the victims and accusers far more than we should and give the accused the benefit of the doubt far more than we should. We should change that.
    What I am saying is that is unconstitutional: it is innocent until proven guilty, NOT GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT! I agree that it is bad to harass women and cross-examine them on the stand, and it puts women through even more then they have already gone through. This is definitely an awful thing. However, the same can be said for any victim of any crime, and we cross-examine and harass them as well. That's our legal system though: we must convict suspects guilty of a crime beyond a shadow of a doubt. I agree, that this sucks, but to anything else would basically be changing the way that America does law altogether, and I'm not down with that.

    Disagree. It's controversial, but it's my opinion. Ideally we would do the above and no one would be falsely convicted.
    But that's the problem with your system: Many, MANY people would be falsely convicted under your system. Now that wouldn't be that bad if it was like some petty crime like a "disturbing the peace" charge or something, but it's not. No, a rape charge gives you the title of sex offender which basically destroys you for the rest of your life. If we are going to place such a heinous tag on someone for the rest of their life, we need to be ABSOLUTELY sure that we have correctly prosecuted that person and that we have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that person was guilty of such a crime.

    Wow, you really sympathize with sex offenders. Do you know any personally? Are you afraid of becoming one? I think all this is perfectly legitimate if they are an actual sex offender. And the percentage of people who are falsely convicted is like, probably less than 2%, considering that false accusations are 2% and the percentage of people accused who are convicted is really low. This is lower than the risk of false car theft charges or false murder charges or probably false any other charges. The risk of being falsely accused AND falsely convicted and then jailed is so small as to be laughable. Do you avoid driving a car because of the risk that you might be killed? Your life is ruined if you're dead too. And the risk is way higher. I think even if things were changed according tot he radical interpretation of my view it might approach something like the risk of false murder claims at most. Which are strongly influenced by race and class btw. You are really really paranoid, and about things it's totally irrational to be paranoid about.
    1) I DON'T SUPPORT SEX OFFENDERS. I just know that it is one of the worst things that can happen to be labeled a sex offender, and again, if are going to place that tag on someone, then we need to be 100% sure of the fact that they are guilty.

    2) I'm almost positive that your statistic is bullshit, that only 2% of the people accused are innocent. What shitty wikipedia article did you get that flawed statistic from?

  6. #236
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    2) I'm almost positive that your statistic is bullshit, that only 2% of the people accused are innocent. What shitty wikipedia article did you get that flawed statistic from?
    Um, the Justice Department? Other statistics estimate up to 25%, but that's still really low. And the fact that many rapes aren't reported shows that if every actual rape was reported and the rate of false accusations stayed the same, it would be about 2%.

    Whatever, blah blah blah paranoid bs. You should stop driving cars too in case you get killed.

  7. #237
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    All black men are potential rapist - white racists/lynchers during the late 19th and early 20th century
    All men are potential rapist - 21st century feminists

    Feminists never surprise me with their utter stupidity.

    Hey while we're at it

    All blacks are potential muggers, blacks do commit more violent crime per ca pita than whites, and blacks commit more violent crimes against whites than the other way around, guess we need to tell them blacks to stop being so damn violent right!!!

    The feminist conception of rape culture is a shaming tactic to indict all men for the rapes very few of the commit against womyn, there are many people who use this same type of reasoning to justify racial profiling of minorities.

    We need to tell men to stop raping womyn, feminists suffer from amazing tunnel vision when looking at rape, domestic violence, or any kind of gender discussion. Rape is an extreme, not on the norm of western society, rape is reviled by most, in fact the accusation of rape was used to galvanize whites around lynching a few of those terrible potential rapists, it is already considered one of the worst crimes a man can commit in our existing culture.

    For all you think you're colorblind liberal feminist, a lot of you are extremely hypocritical if you don't acknowledge the discrepancy between different groups of men perceived as rapists, you're more likely to be paranoid around those "dark" males than the others.
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  8. #238
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    All black men are potential rapist - white racists/lynchers during the late 19th and early 20th century
    All men are potential rapist - 21st century feminists

    Feminists never surprise me with their utter stupidity.

    Hey while we're at it

    All blacks are potential muggers, blacks do commit more violent crime per ca pita than whites, and blacks commit more violent crimes against whites than the other way around, guess we need to tell them blacks to stop being so damn violent right!!!

    The feminist conception of rape culture is a shaming tactic to indict all men for the rapes very few of the commit against womyn, there are many people who use this same type of reasoning to justify racial profiling of minorities.

    We need to tell men to stop raping womyn, feminists suffer from amazing tunnel vision when looking at rape, domestic violence, or any kind of gender discussion. Rape is an extreme, not on the norm of western society, rape is reviled by most, in fact the accusation of rape was used to galvanize whites around lynching a few of those terrible potential rapists, it is already considered one of the worst crimes a man can commit in our existing culture.

    For all you think you're colorblind liberal feminist, a lot of you are extremely hypocritical if you don't acknowledge the discrepancy between different groups of men perceived as rapists, you're more likely to be paranoid around those "dark" males than the others.
    You are taking an oversimplified version of feminist theories; there are a lot of resources on the internet and books with which to educate yourself. Try bell hooks.

  9. #239
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    You are taking an oversimplified version of feminist theories; there are a lot of resources on the internet and books with which to educate yourself. Try bell hooks.
    Even bell hooks(a black feminist) has criticized the notion of rape culture and it's feminism that has an oversimplified perspective of gender related issues. She would most likely agree with me that white feminists like to pretend they're colorblind when viewing the potential sexual threat level of men.

    quoted from wikipedia

    Other writers, such as bell hooks, have criticized the rape culture paradigm on the grounds that it is too narrowly focused; in 1984, she wrote that it ignores rape's place in an overarching "culture of violence".
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  10. #240
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    Even bell hooks(a black feminist) has criticized the notion of rape culture and it's feminism that has an oversimplified perspective of gender related issues. She would most likely agree with me that white feminists like to pretend they're colorblind when viewing the potential sexual threat level of men.

    quoted from wikipedia

    Other writers, such as bell hooks, have criticized the rape culture paradigm on the grounds that it is too narrowly focused; in 1984, she wrote that it ignores rape's place in an overarching "culture of violence".
    I'm sure there are varying opinions on it, and theories will vary according to who holds them; certainly mainstream white feminism will be biased in some respects, agreed. In my intersectional feminism class we discussed bell hooks' work, rape culture, trans issues, racism in general, and a bunch of other things- so they fit together in a general context of intersecting oppressions. I'm glad you have read some on the issues; I was ignorant about a lot of things before I took the class, so I was probably a kind of feminist who would alienate some people from feminism. I'm sure I still am in some ways. Feminism comes in many flavors and no feminist holds a perfect collection of beliefs and attitudes. But I feel it's a bit unfair to conclude that feminism in itself is stupid based on some real flaws in some people's thinking. In our class we did discuss the culture of violence and that many feminists believe it in itself is part of rape culture, or that rape culture stems directly from it. I won't assume you are completely ignorant of feminist theory (though your post sort of sounded like it), but making sweeping negative generalizations is rarely an accurate portrayal of theory.

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