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  1. #221
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    I never considered rape an act of sex but rather an act of violence. I'd read or heard that rape is rooted in taking control from the victim but IMHO that's somewhat shortsighted.
    My opinion is that a rapist isn't overwhelmed with loving affection that s/he can't help but share with the intended victim. Rather rape is the act of taking something from an unconsenting individual, whether it's stealing their piece of mind or instilling a sense of terror, it's never about love or sex. Rape is violence because the rapist is exerting their will over the victim, taking away their sense of safety & leaving victims (assuming the victim survives the attack) with a fear of powerlessness to prevent from being raped again.

    If I believed that rape were rooted in uncontrollable sexual urges, then I might support the removal of rapist's sexual organs rather than exterminating them from all of society.
    However: I doubt any man or woman would consent to the mutilation of their sex organs because they're aware deep inside the motivation isn't sexual but rather it's a screwy thrill from holding power over an individuals life.
    True it is an act of violence, but there are degrees of punishment for degrees of violence. I'm not trying to say that rapes which do not use physical force (like taking advantage of a drunk person- although that arguably could be force- or a threat of consequences due to a power dynamic) aren't really rapes, just that you can't lump them all into one category and say that every rapist is a psychopath who deserves to die. I mean, maybe that's true, I just want you to see that it's controversial.

  2. #222
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, that about wraps it up folks.
    What does that wrap up? That graphic is less accurate than this one:

    obamacareenrollment-fncchart.jpg

    At least Fox News got the numbers right.

    What's wrong with that graphic?

    1. All statistics used are at the extreme of a range. All of the statistics sited have a range, and rather than choosing something in the middle, the author chose the extreme that best supports her ideology.
    2. This graphic assumes that all men who are acquitted of rape are actually guilty and get away with it.
    3. The range used for false rape claims is low. There is actually no evidence for a 2% false rape claim rate. The FBI did report 8% one year, and another year they reported 15% of rape claims were false. I don't remember the years of those reports, sorry. I only point them out to show the lack of precision with this statistic. A 1996 report of DNA analysis found that between 20-25% of men accused of rape were exonerated by DNA. Another ~20% were inconclusive.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt

    Results of DNA Laboratory Survey

    Conducted in June 1995, the nationwide telephone
    survey of 40 public and private laboratories that
    performed DNA tests sought answers to such
    questions as: From the time the laboratories began
    DNA testing, how many cases have they handled? Of
    that number, what percentage yielded results that
    excluded defendants as sources of the DNA evidence
    or were inconclusive?

    The 40 surveyed laboratories yielded 19 whose
    available data were sufficient for the purposes of
    this study. The 19 included 13 at the State/local
    level, 4 in the private sector, an armed forces
    laboratory, and the FBI's laboratory.

    Most of the laboratories had initiated DNA testing
    only within the previous few years. Twelve began
    testing between 1990 and 1992. Three of the four
    private laboratories began in 1986 or 1987, while
    the FBI started DNA testing in 1988.

    Seven of the laboratories reported using RFLP
    testing; four, PCR testing; and eight, both types
    of tests.

    The 19 laboratories reported that, since they began
    testing, they had received evidence in 21,621 cases
    for DNA analysis, with the FBI accounting for
    10,060 cases. Three of the 4 private laboratories
    averaged 2,400 each; the State and local
    laboratories averaged 331 each.

    In about 23 percent of the 21,621 cases, DNA test
    results excluded suspects, according to
    respondents. An additional 16 percent of the cases,
    approximately, yielded inconclusive results, often
    because the test samples had deteriorated or were
    too small. Inconclusive results aside, test results
    in the balance of the cases did not exclude the
    suspect.

    The FBI reported that, in the 10,060 cases it
    received, DNA testing results were about 20 percent
    inconclusive and 20 percent exclusion; the other 18
    laboratories (11,561 cases) reported about 13
    percent and 26 percent, respectively.*
    25% sounds kind of high to me for false rape claims (probably because I've been told over and over that the number is super low), but I don't really know. What goes through the mind of a real rape victim who wants to report a rape and someone who is making a false accusation are two completely different things. They're two completely different mindsets.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #223
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    All violence is trivialized by someone. And if anything, sexual violence is trivialized the least of all types of violence. We don't have assaulter lists. We don't have murderer lists. But we do have sex offenders lists, and people are on those lists for the rest of their lives. Our society takes sexual violence very seriously (when women and children are the victims). The fact that sexual assault is difficult to prove is a matter of circumstance, not evidence of Rape Culture.

    As for your nonsensical victim blaming argument, you're simply ignorant. White males, the group at the top of your Privilege Hierarchy, are blamed when they're victims too. In my life I've known white males to be blamed for being mugged, having a car stolen, getting beat up, being stalked, getting a house unfairly foreclosed on, among many other things. You're trying really hard to portray those at the top of your Privilege Hierarchy as somehow immune to victim blaming, but it's simply not true. The Privilege Hierarchy is sociological nonsense. There is nothing special about rape except for the fact that feminists want to turn it into the Most Important Issue in the history of existence.

    As for the male who was mutilated, he doesn't count as evidence of Rape Culture because it wasn't rape and he's not female. The Rape Culture movement is focused exclusively on females, anyway, so it's disingenuous to claim that incident as evidence. Male rape victims aren't even an afterthought. They're grudgingly mentioned in an attempt to deflect criticism. Male mutilation is a feminist triumph. Watch the video again and listen to how everyone is laughing and cheering. Those feminists having a great time.

    Your call my position myopic, yet I find your position to be too narrow. You're starting from the position of "the importance of rape needs to be elevated in our society", so you're dismissing things that don't fit that agenda. I'm starting from the position of "what can I show to be incorrect or flawed" because I'm an asshole contrarian like that.
    Willful ignorance is a privilege of the unlearned. Progress naturally threatens you.

    You will continue to form arguments by tilting at windmills. Making up things only to argue against the very things you imagined.

    It's okay. I don't blame you, for being you.

  4. #224
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    All violence is trivialized by someone. And if anything, sexual violence is trivialized the least of all types of violence. We don't have assaulter lists. We don't have murderer lists. But we do have sex offenders lists, and people are on those lists for the rest of their lives. Our society takes sexual violence very seriously (when women and children are the victims). The fact that sexual assault is difficult to prove is a matter of circumstance, not evidence of Rape Culture.

    As for your nonsensical victim blaming argument, you're simply ignorant. White males, the group at the top of your Privilege Hierarchy, are blamed when they're victims too. In my life I've known white males to be blamed for being mugged, having a car stolen, getting beat up, being stalked, getting a house unfairly foreclosed on, among many other things. You're trying really hard to portray those at the top of your Privilege Hierarchy as somehow immune to victim blaming, but it's simply not true. The Privilege Hierarchy is sociological nonsense. There is nothing special about rape except for the fact that feminists want to turn it into the Most Important Issue in the history of existence.

    As for the male who was mutilated, he doesn't count as evidence of Rape Culture because it wasn't rape and he's not female. The Rape Culture movement is focused exclusively on females, anyway, so it's disingenuous to claim that incident as evidence. Male rape victims aren't even an afterthought. They're grudgingly mentioned in an attempt to deflect criticism. Male mutilation is a feminist triumph. Watch the video again and listen to how everyone is laughing and cheering. Those feminists having a great time.

    Your call my position myopic, yet I find your position to be too narrow. You're starting from the position of "the importance of rape needs to be elevated in our society", so you're dismissing things that don't fit that agenda. I'm starting from the position of "what can I show to be incorrect or flawed" because I'm an asshole contrarian like that.
    There are all sorts of flaws in this thinking.

    First of all, the fact that something is trivialized doesn't mean it's right to trivialize it or that it isn't symptomatic of a bigger problem.

    Second, I believe we do have murder lists. If someone is convicted of anything it is on their criminal record.

    Society does act like it takes rape seriously but its actions don't match its words. For instance the school's reaction in the following case:
    http://www.thecrimson.com/article/20...exual-assault/

    The whole paragraph about privilege hierarchy shows that you don't even understand what intersectionality means. There is oppression based on sex which means that males are privileged over females. There is oppression based on race which means that whiter people are more privileged than darker people. There is oppression based on sexual orientation, class, ability, gender identity, etc. This does not mean that every white male will live free of oppression, as there are white males who are victims of class oppression, sexual orientation, sexual identity, and just their personal circumstances. They might just have really bad luck. Being privileged (along one of these axes) doesn't mean your life is great or nothing unjust will ever happen to you, it just means you don't experience oppression based on one of those things.

    Males are harmed by patriarchy and rape culture victimizes males as well as females. And many feminists acknowledge this. And a person who does not or who advocates harming males may not be a feminist. Actually s/he is probably not a feminist.

    All the things you point out in fact are either false or do in fact fit the agenda (as you put it in the past paragraph), so your argument is invalid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    25% sounds kind of high to me for false rape claims (probably because I've been told over and over that the number is super low), but I don't really know. What goes through the mind of a real rape victim who wants to report a rape and someone who is making a false accusation are two completely different things. They're two completely different mindsets.
    Which is something that is taken in to account when thorough investigations are carried out by people trained in how victims respond to trauma, rather than relying on people who make ignorant assumptions.
    Edit: And that response is not always being emotionally distraught. People respond in a variety of different ways, but share some specific characteristics.

  5. #225
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    There are all sorts of flaws in this thinking.

    First of all, the fact that something is trivialized doesn't mean it's right to trivialize it or that it isn't symptomatic of a bigger problem.
    Right, the bigger problem is a lack of empathy in our society. There's nothing special about rape, except the fact that it's the ONLY violent crime where women are more often the victim than men (if you exclude prison rape).

    Second, I believe we do have murder lists. If someone is convicted of anything it is on their criminal record.
    You're clearly ignorant of what sex offender registries are. They give you the address of sex offenders. There is no "murder list" or "assault list" where you can go to a website to find the addresses of convicted murderers and assaulters.

    Society does act like it takes rape seriously but its actions don't match its words. For instance the school's reaction in the following case:
    http://www.thecrimson.com/article/20...exual-assault/
    So you think this incident proves that our society does not take rape seriously? I don't think examples where the system has failed to bring about justice is evidence that we don't take an issue seriously. I look more toward cultural attitudes for that. We have shows where serial killers are portrayed as heroes. If our culture was open to the idea that a rapist could be a hero, there would be a show, but there isn't one. We have sex offender registries in an attempt to allow people to protect themselves from sex offenders. We have no such system for people who commit other violent crimes.

    The whole paragraph about privilege hierarchy shows that you don't even understand what intersectionality means. There is oppression based on sex which means that males are privileged over females. There is oppression based on race which means that whiter people are more privileged than darker people. There is oppression based on sexual orientation, class, ability, gender identity, etc. This does not mean that every white male will live free of oppression, as there are white males who are victims of class oppression, sexual orientation, sexual identity, and just their personal circumstances. They might just have really bad luck. Being privileged (along one of these axes) doesn't mean your life is great or nothing unjust will ever happen to you, it just means you don't experience oppression based on one of those things.

    Males are harmed by patriarchy and rape culture victimizes males as well as females. And many feminists acknowledge this. And a person who does not or who advocates harming males may not be a feminist. Actually s/he is probably not a feminist.

    All the things you point out in fact are either false or do in fact fit the agenda (as you put it in the past paragraph), so your argument is invalid.
    You assume that because I reject them I must not understand them. That is foolish. I understand what privilege and intersectionality are. They're nonsensical and unscientific. There is no evidence of their existence. I have no more reason to believe their existence than I have to believe in the existence of God.

    You accept those concepts because they fit into what you already believe, not because they actually have any merit.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #226
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Which is something that is taken in to account when thorough investigations are carried out by people trained in how victims respond to trauma, rather than relying on people who make ignorant assumptions.
    Edit: And that response is not always being emotionally distraught. People respond in a variety of different ways, but share some specific characteristics.
    I said this before, but I should probably repeat it. People should just STFU up while rape investigations are going on. Don't judge the accuser or the accused. But I know our society can't help itself. We love to judge people, whether it's rape victims, people accused of rape, celebrities, Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street, the rich, or the poor. We're a nation of judgmental assholes.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #227
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Right, the bigger problem is a lack of empathy in our society. There's nothing special about rape, except the fact that it's the ONLY violent crime where women are more often the victim than men (if you exclude prison rape).
    It's not a problem of empathy. It is on an individual level, but society should be protecting people from sociopaths and people with sociopathic tendencies, and it's not. Trying to get a person to have more empathy does no good if that person is not open to it, which is usually the case with rapists. We need more practical measures to address the problem of rape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're clearly ignorant of what sex offender registries are. They give you the address of sex offenders. There is no "murder list" or "assault list" where you can go to a website to find the addresses of convicted murderers and assaulters.
    I really don't think it matters as this doesn't appear to be much of a deterrent. The fact that it is not a deterrent indicates that our culture only says it takes it seriously
    but in practice doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you think this incident proves that our society does not take rape seriously? I don't think examples where the system has failed to bring about justice is evidence that we don't take an issue seriously. I look more toward cultural attitudes for that. We have shows where serial killers are portrayed as heroes. If our culture was open to the idea that a rapist could be a hero, there would be a show, but there isn't one. We have sex offender registries in an attempt to allow people to protect themselves from sex offenders. We have no such system for people who commit other violent crimes.
    Once again, the fact that in some ways it is taken more seriously than murder does not mean that rape culture does not exist. Maybe our culture of violence is more predominant. So what? And yes, I see one example as strong evidence that our culture doesn't take it seriously. But there are plenty more. Society is more than the collection of individuals and their attitudes; societal institutions really show societal attitudes. Responses of institutions to these issues show cultural attitudes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You assume that because I reject them I must not understand them. That is foolish. I understand what privilege and intersectionality are. They're nonsensical and unscientific. There is no evidence of their existence. I have no more reason to believe their existence than I have to believe in the existence of God.

    You accept those concepts because they fit into what you already believe, not because they actually have any merit.
    Aaand, this quote further says that you don't know what it means. It is not something "scientific". It is theory to interpret trends in empirical data. It's not like you can take a magnifying glass and aim it at a courthouse and say "Oh, I see it! I found the rape culture!". In fact there is strong and overwhelming evidence in favor of the claims that intersectional feminists make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I said this before, but I should probably repeat it. People should just STFU up while rape investigations are going on. Don't judge the accuser or the accused. But I know our society can't help itself. We love to judge people, whether it's rape victims, people accused of rape, celebrities, Wall Street, Occupy Wall Street, the rich, or the poor. We're a nation of judgmental assholes.
    This is true but a derail. You mentioned there were two different mindsets between victims and people making false accusations, and this is true. And the consequences are that if people are educated about what these are they can investigate accusations more thoroughly and determine more accurately and consistently if the accuser is telling the truth. Do you deny this?

  8. #228
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    It's not a problem of empathy. It is on an individual level, but society should be protecting people from sociopaths and people with sociopathic tendencies, and it's not. Trying to get a person to have more empathy does no good if that person is not open to it, which is usually the case with rapists. We need more practical measures to address the problem of rape.
    A lack of empathy isn't a problem? Seriously? You think we have enough empathy in our society?

    Empathy is the source of our morality, and you dismiss it like it's some trivial little concept.

    I really don't think it matters as this doesn't appear to be much of a deterrent. The fact that it is not a deterrent indicates that our culture only says it takes it seriously
    but in practice doesn't.
    Whether or not it is effective is not an indicator of how much our society takes rape seriously. The fact that sex offenses, singularly, have a registry is evidence that our society takes rape seriously.

    Once again, the fact that in some ways it is taken more seriously than murder does not mean that rape culture does not exist. Maybe our culture of violence is more predominant. So what? And yes, I see one example as strong evidence that our culture doesn't take it seriously. But there are plenty more. Society is more than the collection of individuals and their attitudes; societal institutions really show societal attitudes. Responses of institutions to these issues show cultural attitudes.
    Of course you see one example as evidence because that's what you want to believe. You are a True Believer in your faith-based ideology.

    Aaand, this quote further says that you don't know what it means. It is not something "scientific". It is theory to interpret trends in empirical data. It's not like you can take a magnifying glass and aim it at a courthouse and say "Oh, I see it! I found the rape culture!". In fact there is strong and overwhelming evidence in favor of the claims that intersectional feminists make.
    You're right, it's not scientific. That's why I reject it. There is no more overwhelming evidence for privilege/intersectionality than there is for intelligent design. They're both concepts that try to dress themselves up as being scientific and only fool the gullible, the True Believers.

    This is true but a derail. You mentioned there were two different mindsets between victims and people making false accusations, and this is true. And the consequences are that if people are educated about what these are they can investigate accusations more thoroughly and determine more accurately and consistently if the accuser is telling the truth. Do you deny this?
    Deny what? You're not making any sense.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #229
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    A lack of empathy isn't a problem? Seriously? You think we have enough empathy in our society?

    Empathy is the source of our morality, and you dismiss it like it's some trivial little concept.


    Whether or not it is effective is not an indicator of how much our society takes rape seriously. The fact that sex offenses, singularly, have a registry is evidence that our society takes rape seriously.


    Of course you see one example as evidence because that's what you want to believe. You are a True Believer in your faith-based ideology.


    You're right, it's not scientific. That's why I reject it. There is no more overwhelming evidence for privilege/intersectionality than there is for intelligent design. They're both concepts that try to dress themselves up as being scientific and only fool the gullible, the True Believers.


    Deny what? You're not making any sense.
    You're blatantly making statements which don't even address what I said before, and responding to things I didn't say. Just reread what I've said before. You're the one not making sense. You should probably just stop posting in this thread because you're clearly irrational and not contributing anything useful to it. Exposing all the errors in your logic would be too time consuming to be a worthwhile use of my time.

    If there's anyone here who does not think this guy is obviously out of touch with reality, I'll enumerate it for you if I don't think you are also similarly out of touch with reality.

  10. #230
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    You're blatantly making statements which don't even address what I said before, and responding to things I didn't say. Just reread what I've said before. You're the one not making sense. You should probably just stop posting in this thread because you're clearly irrational and not contributing anything useful to it. Exposing all the errors in your logic would be too time consuming to be a worthwhile use of my time.

    If there's anyone here who does not think this guy is obviously out of touch with reality, I'll enumerate it for you if I don't think you are also similarly out of touch with reality.
    Reread what? The post where you said a lack of empathy isn't a problem? The post where you said it's better for innocent men to go to prison than for women to have to testify? The post where you said we should replace innocent until proven guilty with guilty until proven innocent when dealing with rape? I'm not sure which of your incredibly wise posts I should reread. It's probably because I'm so out-of-touch with reality.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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