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  1. #211
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Went on a blog trawl thanks to Mempy and found this gem: The People You Meet When You Write About Rape


  2. #212
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    ...what is to keep a woman from just lying and saying a man raped her just to get back at him for something, if we use this plea that a person doesn't need to have fought back to prove that they were raped?
    This is a derail. This isn't a discussion about how we can prevent people from lying, because, like, nobody knows the answer to that (and because, like, it's impossible, or whatever). It's also a completely laughable straw man. (Did I say laughable? I meant that I want to hulk-out when I read it, as in, "I CAN HAS CHAIR? CHAIR FOR BASHING HEADS? PLEASE TO BE BASHING IN HEADS, PLEASE. YOUR HEAD CALLED AND LEFT YOU A MESSAGE, IT SAID IT WANTS TO BE REATTACHED TO THE REST OF YOU.")

    As Jeff said, what are you suggesting? That in the words of Whoopie, it's not "rape-rape" unless you have a perfect victim, perfectly credible to all who know her, attacked by some slavering beast in an alley after saying "no" loudly and clearly multiple times in the presence of several witnesses, calling the police immediately, and fighting back just hard enough so that she doesn't get all-the-way killed and yet leaves behind an array of damning forensic evidence?

    Are those not the circumstances you're suggesting, by your adamant insistence on "proof," in fact prove rape? Let's hear exactly, and I mean in a bullet-pointed list, what you think "proves" rape happened, and then we can get down to the business of discussing why (a) the circumstances you will require will invariably not match up with the circumstances of all, or even probably most, rapes; (b) how the high fear of false rape accusations is out of proportion to the statistical likelihood of being falsely accused of rape, in the conservative estimate, by about fifteen to fifty times; and (c) how false rape accusations, and in fact true rape accusations, are incredibly hard to get to conviction, and how given the very culture we live in women are probably several times more likely to be disbelieved by even their very friend circle than a man is to have his life ruined by some broad who both (a) slept with the defendant and got his semen in her and (b) had enough false evidence of rape to even take the case to court, let alone bring it home to sentencing.

    And you, my friend, are rape culture. Let's not miss the irony of this very culture walking and talking, oblivious to its own existence, in a thread meant to thoughtfully discuss what rape culture is. Rape culture is the fear of false rape accusations being mortifyingly high compared to their actual proven incidence, while the rate of ACTUAL unreported rapes that happen to ACTUAL people, not to mention the ACTUAL number of unconvicted rapes according to ACTUAL government studies, is so abysmally high that if you tried to graph it, it would look like this:



    And this graph was apparently made by the Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey and FBI reports. Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ull-see-today/

    I have to tell you, in the same vein as what Jeff said, that the statistics about "low reporting, high occurrence, and low conviction" kind of distract me, in a way, as do these:

    1. Low estimate of the number of women, according to the Department of Justice, raped every year in the United States: 300,000
    2. High estimate of the number of women raped, according to the CDC: 1.3 million
    3. Percentage of rapes not reported: 54 percent
    4. A woman's chance of being raped in the U.S.: 1 in 5
    5. Percentage of rapes that college students think are false claims: 50 percent
    6. Percentage of rapes that studies find are false claims: 2-8 percent
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya...b_2019338.html
    They're running just like you
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    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  3. #213
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Went on a blog trawl thanks to Mempy and found this gem: The People You Meet When You Write About Rape

    Mr. I'm Not Blaming Her But It's Her Fault
    "Rape is never the victim's fault, of course. But I just want people to admit that she has some responsibility. That she maybe played a part in it. That in an alternate universe where she'd done things differently and she lived in a steel Battlemech wearing a chastity belt, she wouldn't have gotten raped, and she did make the choice to not use a Battlemech. I just need people to acknowledge that."
    Haha, this one was perfect.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  4. #214
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    Well, that about wraps it up folks.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #215
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Which sucks,
    Yup.

    but a defendant deserves no fewer protections just because evidence for some crimes is difficult for the state to produce,
    Of course.

    nor does it justify diluting the burden of proof
    I wasn't proposing diluting the burden of proof, but reinvisioning a different approach to measuring standard of proof. "Reasonable" versus "Unreasonable" doubt is hazy in its definition and subsequent use by the jury. If anything, I'd wager (hehe) it dilutes the validity, reliability, and accuracy.

    and thereby endangering centuries of progress in protecting people from the overwhelming power of the state to produce convenient, rather than accurate, convictions.
    How do you know that the current standard of proof, indeed, produces accurate rather than convenient convictions? What evidence do you have?

    If something is not working, fix it. In order to know if it is not working, it has to be rigorously tested. Evidence needs to be sought.

    Until recently, there were no real effort made to find out how often verdicts of trails were false (and conversely, how often they were true). If this was the sciences, it would be laughed at, as child's play. How can one NOT ascertain how error prone an instrument or technique is? And, if it is error prone, saying, "well, that's the best we got, we got to live with the error, and be at peace with the bias it holds. Let's not bother re-thinking about alternates," is the very antithesis of progress.

    Let's not hold on to something due to sentimentality, that no other alternates can protect everyone involved (including defendants).

    "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is like broadly defined "democracy"; the worst system in the world.....except for all the others,
    ........currently defined.

  6. #216
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Are you kidding me lady? If someone is convicted of rape, they are given a sex offender conviction, can't ever get a good job anywhere, are sentenced to a life time of poverty, and are put on a national website and are publicly humiliated and are basically put on a wide screen that says SEX OFFENDER so that everyone will forever see them as a sick fuck. Jesus woman, what more can we do to these people? Isn't this enough?
    I think Coriolis said it best, something about changing our attitudes to not blame the victim and give hir a greater measure of credibility. You can find the post. I'm too lazy. At present we doubt the victims and accusers far more than we should and give the accused the benefit of the doubt far more than we should. We should change that.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    NO! It's not good to EVER falsely accuse anyone of anything! It's better that a few rapists go free, then for even a single innocent person to go to jail.
    Disagree. It's controversial, but it's my opinion. Ideally we would do the above and no one would be falsely convicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Wow. Trivialising the impact of rape for a victim. In a thread about rape culture. It takes a special brand of talent to be this accidentally ironic.
    Yeah, and how would he know? Does he know anyone who is a survivor of rape, who may not ever have a healthy sex life again, suffers from depression and maybe PTSD, panic attacks, has had to drop out of school, etc.? Yeah life is easy for rape victims. They just laugh it off and go on with their lives.

  7. #217
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I would agree with your policy more if this was like the olden days. Say for instance, we were in the old west. Someone could be accused of raping a woman, and then they would go to jail. However, that's it, they would just simply go to jail for a while. Afterwards, to escape the social stigma of this, they could just go and live somewhere else and get a fresh, new start. However, now, if someone is falsely accused of rape, they are BRANDED a sex offender, they can't get a good job anywhere, and they are viewed as a total monster. And now because of the information age, they can't go anywhere and escape this horrible stigma. So because this is such a HORRIBLE burden on someone, I think that we need to keep our "innocent until proven guilty" stance on justice. Seriously, I would rather see a rapist go free, then to see an innocent person go to jail.
    Wow, you really sympathize with sex offenders. Do you know any personally? Are you afraid of becoming one? I think all this is perfectly legitimate if they are an actual sex offender. And the percentage of people who are falsely convicted is like, probably less than 2%, considering that false accusations are 2% and the percentage of people accused who are convicted is really low. This is lower than the risk of false car theft charges or false murder charges or probably false any other charges. The risk of being falsely accused AND falsely convicted and then jailed is so small as to be laughable. Do you avoid driving a car because of the risk that you might be killed? Your life is ruined if you're dead too. And the risk is way higher. I think even if things were changed according tot he radical interpretation of my view it might approach something like the risk of false murder claims at most. Which are strongly influenced by race and class btw. You are really really paranoid, and about things it's totally irrational to be paranoid about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Ok, that's rape culture.

    The article in op extrapolated a lot though. Like, if I had a daughter, I'd advise her to take precautions because I'd care about her enough to want that risk as minimized as possible. And I'd be supposedly perpretating rape culture according to the article.

    It is indirectly encouraging reckless behavior, as well as reckless parenting.
    I don't think people like the author of the article are saying you shouldn't advise a person to protect hirself, just do it in the right ways. Like don't make hir afraid of all men, don't make hir think that stranger rape with a weapon is the most common kind of rape, educate hir about strategies rapists use on their victims so they can be identified and avoided, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    So then if this is so, how do you think that the legal system should be reformed specifically?
    Well here's a start:
    http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com...orks-rape-law/
    http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com...egal-standard/

  8. #218
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    Eradicate the bad seed from society, permanently eliminate those extreme violent felons (murderers, rapists etc) which aren't candidates for rehabilitation lest we encourage society to revert to vigilantism.

    I'd support capital punishment for child rapist & those with multiple rape convictions.
    Example: A man is convicted of violently raping a woman or vice versa. The convict serves a 15 year sentence (U.S.) & should receive all the needed services during his rehabilitation but shortly after being released back upon society s/he brutally rapes another victim. If convicted a 2nd time I'd suggest a sentence of death, not as a means of revenge for the victim but rather to protect society from an extremely violent predator. My $0.02 is that some people just can't be fixed & should be put down akin to a rabid animal.
    This is interesting considering that the latest research on undetected rapists suggests that there is a high incidence of crossover violence and rape (or whatever they called it) between adults, children, strangers, people they know, and people in their family. And the majority of rapists rape multiple times. So by your reasoning, most rapists would be put to death. Which I'm not entirely opposed to, as convicted rapists are unlikely to be reformed. I have the study but it's freezing up my computer so I'll post it later if people want. It's really good.

    I think you're still in the mindset of rape is some guy jumping out of an alley with a knife.

  9. #219
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrderOfTheCaelifera View Post
    My mindset is that rape isn't a sex crime perpetrated by individuals that merely went astray of the law but rather an act of violence perpetrated by extremely violent predatory individuals. Rapists are violent predators that prey upon the vulnerable of society which are most often young women & children.

    I live in the US, last year we executed a man that raped his girlfriend's 6 month old child so violently that the child died from multiple trauma. His lame "poor me" excuse was that he was drunk & not responsible for his actions because alcoholism is a disease. F#%k due process of law, that POS was a monster that should've been put down upon the spot he was arrested.
    Another predatory example: Robert Waterhouse was convicted in 1980 of raping a Florida woman & then murdering her to cover his crime. That rape & murder never would've occurred had New York kept Waterhouse in prison for 30 years rather than releasing him after 8 years served on a life sentence for the robbery & murder conviction of a 77-year-old Long Island woman in 1966.

    I can reference many other examples of why rapists (& murderers) are the type predators that should be permanently removed from all of society but arrgh this stuff boils my blood & I've gotta take a break before I get carried away.
    I agree with you in those cases certainly. The thing is that most rapes don't fit that description.They are still an act of violence perpetrated by people who aren't very good people and in some cases are pretty bad people, but the fact is that many are committed by people who others consider to be fairly good people. Ignoring this fact perpetuates rape culture by implying that if a guy seems like a nice guy he couldn't be a rapist. They're not the same kind of horrible monster, except for the ones who I discussed above whose crimes overlap categories; that study was flawed in that the wording of the questions specifically mentioned force and violence, and many rapes do not involve overt force or violence.

  10. #220
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That's not what my original point was. Go back and re-read it, and understand the context of my point.

    One last try:
    The existence of a "murder culture" would be valid if a victim of murder was blamed simply because they got murdered. Not for any other reason, but because they were murdered. As such, the independent variable (murder) explains or predicts the dependent variable (blaming of the victim). Testing it out in real life, we see that it does not.
    There are other variables that explains the dependent, variable of "blaming the victim", like racism, classism, sexism, all your other fruitless "isms", which you're so fond of sweeping under the rug, as if they don't exist to make any real impact. Without taking these variables into account, blaming the victim for murder is basically unheard of, as part of our culture.

    Using that exact same analogy towards "rape culture" now. Rape culture would be valid if a victim of rape is blamed simply because they got raped. Not for any other reason, but because they "let themselves" be raped. As such, the independent variable (rape) explains or predicts the dependent variable (blaming the victim). Testing it out in real life, we see that it does. Unfortunately, quite often.
    There can be other variables that may explain the dependent variable of "blaming the victim", like racism, classism, etc., but even WITHOUT these variables, the independent variable does, in real life, explain the original dependent variable: "blaming the victim" in rape cases. I.e., even without taking these variables into account, blaming the victim for rape is heard of, as part of our culture, all too often.

    A white girl is raped. A black girl is raped. Regardless of their race, there is a chance that they will be blamed for their part in letting the rape happen.

    As you will see, I left out sexism from the rape culture analogy, because.........


    Sexism contributes to rape culture! This is one of the main points of rape culture. Sexism is not OUTSIDE of rape culture, it is part of the dialogue WITHIN rape culture.

    You really should understand the basic premise of a topic, before you fumble to tear it down or dismiss it. Otherwise, it makes you look disingenuous.




    Of course it does, and if you understood what rape culture is, you wouldn't ask such a redundant question. It is trivializing sexual violence. So, of course it counts. Males are not the only perpetrators of rape culture, women are, too.

    I'm tired of explaining the obvious analogy for the third time, because you mangle it to fit a myopic view, then counter that myopic view, as if that was the point of my argument. I will not resort to explaining via picture books. That's where I draw the line.

    So, I'm done.
    All violence is trivialized by someone. And if anything, sexual violence is trivialized the least of all types of violence. We don't have assaulter lists. We don't have murderer lists. But we do have sex offenders lists, and people are on those lists for the rest of their lives. Our society takes sexual violence very seriously (when women and children are the victims). The fact that sexual assault is difficult to prove is a matter of circumstance, not evidence of Rape Culture.

    As for your nonsensical victim blaming argument, you're simply ignorant. White males, the group at the top of your Privilege Hierarchy, are blamed when they're victims too. In my life I've known white males to be blamed for being mugged, having a car stolen, getting beat up, being stalked, getting a house unfairly foreclosed on, among many other things. You're trying really hard to portray those at the top of your Privilege Hierarchy as somehow immune to victim blaming, but it's simply not true. The Privilege Hierarchy is sociological nonsense. There is nothing special about rape except for the fact that feminists want to turn it into the Most Important Issue in the History of Existence.

    As for the male who was mutilated, he doesn't count as evidence of Rape Culture because it wasn't rape and he's not female. The Rape Culture movement is focused exclusively on females, anyway, so it's disingenuous to claim that incident as evidence. Male rape victims aren't even an afterthought. They're grudgingly mentioned in an attempt to deflect criticism. Male mutilation is a feminist triumph. Watch the video again and listen to how everyone is laughing and cheering. Those feminists having a great time.

    Your call my position myopic, yet I find your position to be too narrow. You're starting from the position of "the importance of rape needs to be elevated in our society", so you're dismissing things that don't fit that agenda. I'm starting from the position of "what can I show to be incorrect or flawed" because I'm an asshole contrarian like that.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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