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  1. #191
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @cafe

    I am fine with innocent until proven guilty. Anyone who is tried for any crime is going to face some stigma. In a perfect world, accused criminals would get a fair trial and if proven innocent, there would be no stigma. I don't think that is the case for any crime, unfortunately and it's a human problem, not a justice system or sexual assault problem. People are judgmental and they gossip.

    Are you saying that even being accused of a sex crime legally requires you to register as a sex offender? I would not agree with something like that. It's unjust.
    Well then you are a fool. Your system of "guilty until proven innocent" is flawed. In answer to your question, no being accused of a crime doesn't require you to register as a sex offender. However, to society you basically are a sex offender, even if you are proven innocent. We need to keep our justice system one of innocent until proven guilty. Let me give you an example, of why this is so. Recently there was a man on the news, and I knew the guy. Anyway, some girl from the school got pissed off at him and accused him of raping her. The man was renowned as one of the best teachers in the school and everyone really loved him. However, a girl got angry at him and falsely accused him of rape. Well instantly, even though he had not even been to court yet, he was fired from his job just because of being ACCUSED of rape. Everyone that once loved him turned their back on him, just because he was simply accused of rape. He even went to trial and won the case, and found innocent on all charges. However, just because he was ACCUSED of rape, he now can't find a job as a school teacher anywhere in Florida, and he has been looking to get back into teaching for a long time.

    Let's face it, society already views the justice system as "innocent until proven guilty" anyway, let's not make it even worse. Oh, and even if you aren't in teaching being accused of a sex crime will fuck you out of jobs in general. Did you know that if you are even accused of a crime or are facing charges, the vast majority of companies will fire you on the spot, and won't hire you back unless you are proven innocent (and as stated previously in the education system it's even worse). Also, if you are then fired from your company and then try to get another job, then you will be pretty unsuccessful at that too, because most companies ask point blank if you are pending charges, and if you are, then most won't hire. So hopefully you can see now why it would be a horrible mistake to make the "guilty until proven innocent" system even worse then it is.

  2. #192
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @cafe

    There is stigma attached to being a rape victim. People judge and gossip about them, too. I don't think, in addition to that, they should be practically on trial themselves.
    They don't gossip about the rape victim nearly as much as they do as the alleged perpetrator. In fact, I would say that most don't gossip about the rape victim. I would go as far as to say that most people feel bad for people that were raped, and view them as victims. However, perpetrators are viewed as monsters and violent people. It's a lot worse to be viewed as a perpetrator then it is to be viewed as a rape victim.

    Do you believe that being sexually assaulted does not cause long-term consequences to people who experience it? I don't think most people would like to trade being raped for a chance at a good job, which is kind of what you are saying. That's better to be raped than it is to struggle to find a job. I think both things suck a lot, but I think your low risk for being raped is influencing your opinions. Just like my higher risk of being raped is influencing mine.
    No you're wrong. It's much worse to be a sex offender then to be raped. And you clearly don't know what you are talking about either: When you are a sex offender, it's not that you can't just get a GOOD JOB, IT'S THAT YOU CAN'T GET ANY JOB....PERIOD! For example, my mother father, and cousin are all felons, and none of them are sex offenders. However, not one of them can find a good job right now. As a felon, you are screwed out of about 95% of jobs. For instance, it took my father an entire YEAR AND A HALF to find a job after he got out of jail and was labeled a felon. And even now he struggles, to make ends meet. The only field that he can find a job in with his felony is the restaurant industry, and it is almost impossible to make a good living in that industry. In the restaurant field, they give you "flexible hours" and it's very tough to make a living. What they do is that one week, they give you 30 hours a week, then the next week they give you like 10 hours, then 20 the next, and it's just random as fuck each week. Plus, the wage is EXTREMELY low: you can get paid minimum wage which is like $7.92 per hour. I don't know if you have ever survived on that, but it's just about impossible to survive on: you have to live in a horrible neighborhood because you can't afford to live in a better one, you have to eat a very poor diet, you can't afford health care and have to just suffer in pain when you get sick, and much much more.

    Oh and this is just for felons. For sex offenders, it's even worse. My Dad has a friend and his son is a sex offender, it took him 5 YEARS to get a job, and the best job he could get was part-time at a job delivering bread. Luckily, his dad carried him until he could get a job, but my point is: What if you don't have someone to carry you? Making someone a convicted sex offender basically sentencing them to homelessness or a life of poverty. That's way worse then getting raped.

  3. #193
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    @cafe



    They don't gossip about the rape victim nearly as much as they do as the alleged perpetrator. In fact, I would say that most don't gossip about the rape victim. I would go as far as to say that most people feel bad for people that were raped, and view them as victims. However, perpetrators are viewed as monsters and violent people. It's a lot worse to be viewed as a perpetrator then it is to be viewed as a rape victim.



    No you're wrong. It's much worse to be a sex offender then to be raped. And you clearly don't know what you are talking about either: When you are a sex offender, it's not that you can't just get a GOOD JOB, IT'S THAT YOU CAN'T GET ANY JOB....PERIOD! For example, my mother father, and cousin are all felons, and none of them are sex offenders. However, not one of them can find a good job right now. As a felon, you are screwed out of about 95% of jobs. For instance, it took my father an entire YEAR AND A HALF to find a job after he got out of jail and was labeled a felon. And even now he struggles, to make ends meet. The only field that he can find a job in with his felony is the restaurant industry, and it is almost impossible to make a good living in that industry. In the restaurant field, they give you "flexible hours" and it's very tough to make a living. What they do is that one week, they give you 30 hours a week, then the next week they give you like 10 hours, then 20 the next, and it's just random as fuck each week. Plus, the wage is EXTREMELY low: you can get paid minimum wage which is like $7.92 per hour. I don't know if you have ever survived on that, but it's just about impossible to survive on: you have to live in a horrible neighborhood because you can't afford to live in a better one, you have to eat a very poor diet, you can't afford health care and have to just suffer in pain when you get sick, and much much more.

    Oh and this is just for felons. For sex offenders, it's even worse. My Dad has a friend and his son is a sex offender, it took him 5 YEARS to get a job, and the best job he could get was part-time at a job delivering bread. Luckily, his dad carried him until he could get a job, but my point is: What if you don't have someone to carry you? Making someone a convicted sex offender basically sentencing them to homelessness or a life of poverty. That's way worse then getting raped.
    I am very aware of the shitty employment situation in this country. It isn't just for felons. I know people in the same circumstances that have never been arrested in their lives and they are unlikely to ever be in better circumstances simply for making the mistake of choosing the wrong parents.

    You are putting the blame in the wrong place and you underestimate the shit rape victims go through.

    We need to do much, much more to improve our safety net, to improve employment, to improve wages, to stop our insane levels of incarceration. We need to radically modify the way we reintegrate convicts into society. You won't get one ounce of argument from me on any of that. But it's apples and oranges.

    We can make things safer for rape victims and improve things for convicted felons. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I do have sympathy for registered sex offenders, but that is a thorny problem. Very thorny. In my city, the department of corrections had a contract with a motel to house released sex offenders. It was not common knowledge. It doesn't even look like the motels where people pay by the week and live there. Recently one of the released offenders got a five year old in his room. Now everyone knows and the motel no longer has a contract with the department of corrections. Where are those people now? I don't know. How do we protect citizens and protect the rights of sex offenders at the same time? I don't know that either.

    But on the whole, I don't think your concerns are best addressed by treating the victims of sexual assault like suspects.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #194
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    It's okay boys, i got you covered.

    Read on to find out if she's making a false rape accusation.

    http://www.returnofkings.com/6886/3-...ape-accusation














    so there you have it. You can't be raped by someone you know, and if there's no signs of violent struggle you haven't been raped.

    hope that helps everyone get some clarification on the issue.



    What also might help is this handy guide on how to get past her last minute resistance to sex, when she's saying no, but her body says YES.

    http://www.returnofkings.com/26385/w...r-no-means-yes


    Enjoy.*











    *Disclaimer: this is posted in utter jest, the things described in these articles make my skin crawl.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  5. #195
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    We can make things safer for rape victims and improve things for convicted felons. Those things are not mutually exclusive.
    Finally, some common sense and the crux of the issue. Standing up for rape victims getting a fair trial is not, by default, standing against defendants getting a fair trial. Promoting fairness for one, when it infringes on the fairness of another is a zero sum game. It's a mockery of fairness.

    Rather than argue how best to exploit an imperfect system, and in whose favour, why not focus on the systemic issues within the (imperfect) legal system?

  6. #196
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Is it really protecting the innocent? Or, only the innocent when they are defendants? So, if 10 rapists are set free so that 1 innocent who is accused of rape is set free, what happens to the 10 innocent victims whose perpetrators are set free to potentially assult them again?
    Or, is the focus on the innocent only when the innocent is the defendant? What about the innocent victims?
    What could or could not happen does not matter. In a courtroom, neither the seriousness of the allegation nor the seriousness of the consequences should make any difference to the standard of proof. "Protecting the innocent" is to protect the defendant from injustice, and a courtroom has to be a closed system with only the defendant and the evidence against them.
    You seek to turn the standard of proof into something dependent on utility, thereby stripping presumption of innocence of its protection as a fundamental right, all in in the name of the victim. Taking this to its logical conclusion: The more heinous the crime, the easier the burden of proof will be.
    But I say Justice can only be dealt when guilt has been established beyond reasonable doubt - not on the basis of the utility of a conviction.

    I mean, why not take it to its extreme, as a thought experiment? If we stop persecuting people for committing murder, then sure murderers will walk free, but at least the innocents falsely accused won't be mistakenly found guilty. Right?
    Or, as an equally useful alternative, let's assume every person accused of committing a murder is guilty by default.

    Now, let's take your thought experiment to me and add a layer. Yes, those found guilty will be punished by death. The accused are serial killers, who if not accurately convicted, but let free, will kill again, yet amongst the accused is one innocent (but wrongly accused of being a serial killer). What is your priority then? How far does your concern for the innocent extend? Only to the defendants or also the victims and potential victims? Answer that.
    You expect me to perceive this as some moral dilemma, but I do not. If the evidence doesn't lead the jury to believe the accused are guilty beyond reasonable doubt, then justice will not be done. 100-to-1, 1-to-1, or 1-to-100, it must not matter. The only thing that does matter is guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Standing up for rape victims getting a fair trial is not, by default, standing against defendants getting a fair trial.
    As long as guilt is established beyond any reasonable doubt, just like it has to be for any other crime.

  7. #197
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I am very aware of the shitty employment situation in this country. It isn't just for felons. I know people in the same circumstances that have never been arrested in their lives and they are unlikely to ever be in better circumstances simply for making the mistake of choosing the wrong parents.

    You are putting the blame in the wrong place and you underestimate the shit rape victims go through.

    We need to do much, much more to improve our safety net, to improve employment, to improve wages, to stop our insane levels of incarceration. We need to radically modify the way we reintegrate convicts into society. You won't get one ounce of argument from me on any of that. But it's apples and oranges.

    We can make things safer for rape victims and improve things for convicted felons. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I do have sympathy for registered sex offenders, but that is a thorny problem. Very thorny. In my city, the department of corrections had a contract with a motel to house released sex offenders. It was not common knowledge. It doesn't even look like the motels where people pay by the week and live there. Recently one of the released offenders got a five year old in his room. Now everyone knows and the motel no longer has a contract with the department of corrections. Where are those people now? I don't know. How do we protect citizens and protect the rights of sex offenders at the same time? I don't know that either.

    But on the whole, I don't think your concerns are best addressed by treating the victims of sexual assault like suspects.
    1)No, the people with no criminal record are facing a MUCH WORSE employment problem, then the others. You clearly don't know any convicted felons or sex offenders, I'm telling you, it fucks you out of 95% of jobs. You don't know what a record does to your employment situation.

    2) I'm sorry, but I can't sign onto your "guilty until proven innocent" plan for rapists. It's a recipe for disaster!

  8. #198
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    1)No, the people with no criminal record are facing a MUCH WORSE employment problem, then the others. You clearly don't know any convicted felons or sex offenders, I'm telling you, it fucks you out of 95% of jobs. You don't know what a record does to your employment situation.

    2) I'm sorry, but I can't sign onto your "guilty until proven innocent" plan for rapists. It's a recipe for disaster!
    I have no such plan. I've stated as much many times. Ignoring the disaster that is rape culture does not make the disaster that is our economy, our justice/penal system, and our socio-economic injustice and inequality go away. If it did, those things would already be amazing and fantastic.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #199
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I have no such plan. I've stated as much many times. Ignoring the disaster that is rape culture does not make the disaster that is our economy, our justice/penal system, and our socio-economic injustice and inequality go away. If it did, those things would already be amazing and fantastic.
    Read this article...

    Boxed In: How a Criminal Record Keeps You Unemployed For Life

  10. #200
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje quoting the manosphere View Post

    If your car is robbed, do you wait a few weeks before telling the police? If your house burns down, do you wait a few months before making a claim?

    I often hear women do not report rapes right away because they are ashamed or humiliated to report that it ever happened. This is pure bullshit because any rape victim working with the police can request to have their identity hidden from the press, and both the police and press must honor such requests under penalty of law.

    The most likely reason a woman waits to file rape charges is because she herself doesn’t know how she feels about the sex she had – “Oh, he was cute but I was really drunk…” – and needs to convince herself she was somehow wronged.

    As you can see the above case, an actual rape involves strangers, trespassing, and intense signs of struggle.
    Now its much of the manosphere that is the real rape culture 101 holy crap. The assumed validity of a comparison between having one's car stolen from and being raped is one of the most paradigmatic articles of rape culture and/or bankrupcy of sympathy and imagination I've seen for a while. It's telling how the last requirements of rape here does not even include the most cliche view of rape; this being the back alley psychopath. If one requires trespassing for rape to be "genuine" then even this doesn't fill the bill.

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