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  1. #11
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - this article is idealistic as fuck. there will always be slums, red light districts and shady ass mofos who would not bat an eye at the concept of raping someone, because these people are sociopaths, not people who bought into some social norm that it's okay to rape people.
    i have problems with a lot of what you said, but I'm just going to address this. The whole concept of rape culture is trying to draw to light that rape isn't confined to slums or red light districts. It's committed by plenty of men from "good families" or in positions of power. It's rarely some big, scary man in a mask breaking into your house and raping you in the night. I do agree that it will probably always exist, because there will always be assholes and people predisposed to that kind of behavior. But I think a major problem is just a poor understanding of boundaries. If young men are taught to think certain violations of women are acceptable, a lot of them are going to take it a step further.

    It is hard for me to accept that behavior like that could be taught in any way, just because I personally find it one of the most cruel and disgusting things someone can do to another person, but it's just so common that it seems unlikely that every rapist is a born sociopath who couldn't be helped.

  2. #12
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i have problems with a lot of what you said, but I'm just going to address this. The whole concept of rape culture is trying to draw to light that rape isn't confined to slums or red light districts. It's committed by plenty of men from "good families" or in positions of power. It's rarely some big, scary man in a mask breaking into your house and raping you in the night. I do agree that it will probably always exist, because there will always be assholes and people predisposed to that kind of behavior. But I think a major problem is just a poor understanding of boundaries. If young men are taught to think certain violations of women are acceptable, a lot of them are going to take it a step further.
    It is hard for me to accept that behavior like that could be taught in any way, just because I personally find it one of the most cruel and disgusting things someone can do to another person, but it's just so common that it seems unlikely that every rapist is a born sociopath who couldn't be helped.
    I don't disagree with this (though I can see how my wording may have suggested that). my point was that the article makes it sound like it's totally a social construct (implying it's fixable and can go away completely if people become educated), while mine is: people can make it better, but they will never be able to fix it.
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  3. #13
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawbawbowba View Post
    Rape is a social construct.
    Then it's high time we tore it down. (Wish it were that easy.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #14
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Then it's high time we tore it down. (Wish it were that easy.)
    exactly
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The concept of rape culture is nonsense. Rape is all but universally vilified in the US. Sure there are assholes who say horrible things to rape victims, but that's not indicative of what our culture values (except for free speech, no matter how heinous). There are assholes who protest the funerals of dead soldiers. Do we say there's a murder or death culture because of that? No, we simply recognize those people are assholes and move on. If rape culture was a real thing, a rape accusation would elevate someone's status in society. But that's not what happens. Rape accusations destroy lives even when the accused is found to be not guilty. How many famous murderers are there? Is there a single rapist that comes close to the fame of Charles Manson? Are there any famous rapists at all? What I find most absurd about this is there are television shows that glorify murder, but there are no shows that portray rapists heroically. Not one. If the US has anything, it has a "murder culture". Where are the complaints about that? Oh wait, males are murdered more than three times as often as females, so it's not a big deal. Murder is only an important issue when it's the result of domestic violence. We must never forget that women are always being victimized by the patriarchy.
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  6. #16
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The concept of rape culture is nonsense. Rape is all but universally vilified in the US. Sure there are assholes who say horrible things to rape victims, but that's not indicative of what our culture values (except for free speech, no matter how heinous). There are assholes who protest the funerals of dead soldiers. Do we say there's a murder or death culture because of that? No, we simply recognize those people are assholes and move on. If rape culture was a real thing, a rape accusation would elevate someone's status in society. But that's not what happens. Rape accusations destroy lives even when the accused is found to be not guilty. How many famous murderers are there? Is there a single rapist that comes close to the fame of Charles Manson? Are there any famous rapists at all? What I find most absurd about this is there are television shows that glorify murder, but there are no shows that portray rapists heroically. Not one. If the US has anything, it has a "murder culture". Where are the complaints about that? Oh wait, males are murdered more than three times as often as females, so it's not a big deal. Murder is only an important issue when it's the result of domestic violence. We must never forget that women are always being victimized by the patriarchy.
    these are (as far as American is concerned) valid points. personally, I immediately thought "Middle East" and "Hispanic Countries" when I read the article.
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  7. #17
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I don't disagree with this (though I can see how my wording may have suggested that). my point was that the article makes it sound like it's totally a social construct (implying it's fixable and can go away completely if people become educated), while mine is: people can make it better, but they will never be able to fix it.
    I think it's important to draw attention to this, because it releases a lot of rape victims of the shame of coming forward about what happened to them. A ridiculous amount of rapes go unreported, so anything that helps remedy that is a step forward.

  8. #18
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @greenfairy
    fair enough. I'm also a bit too lazy to debate at the moment (as usual lol)

    Edit:
    however

    slippery slope
    they really don't though. a peeping tom knows he's doing something wrong and is sneaky because he doesn't want to get caught. such an individual lacks the violent, sadistic, often entitled psychology of a rapist.
    Maybe not in the same individual, but allowing acts on one end of a continuum for one individual encourages acts farther along the continuum by other individuals- it's more of a societal slippery slope, where people don't know where to draw the line between what a person is entitled to and what s/he is not. And I'd say in your above quote it does have a sense of entitlement, which is to be in someone's privacy and to view their body without permission. It's still using that person as a means to an end and not also as an end in themselves- respecting their autonomy and authority to make their own decisions about what happens to them. (Kant's notion of humanity also applies here, because the use of reason is not respected, in that a person uses reason when they make decisions about their own life.)
    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i have problems with a lot of what you said, but I'm just going to address this. The whole concept of rape culture is trying to draw to light that rape isn't confined to slums or red light districts. It's committed by plenty of men from "good families" or in positions of power. It's rarely some big, scary man in a mask breaking into your house and raping you in the night. I do agree that it will probably always exist, because there will always be assholes and people predisposed to that kind of behavior. But I think a major problem is just a poor understanding of boundaries. If young men are taught to think certain violations of women are acceptable, a lot of them are going to take it a step further.

    It is hard for me to accept that behavior like that could be taught in any way, just because I personally find it one of the most cruel and disgusting things someone can do to another person, but it's just so common that it seems unlikely that every rapist is a born sociopath who couldn't be helped.
    Yes. When people talk about rape they have a tendency to focus on the perpetrators and their future and character (which is problematic in itself, as it's the victim who is important, and hir future is just as affected); they talk about all the good qualities of the rapists- their accomplishments and the fact that they seemed like a good person in general. Well, people who do things which are useful to society and the community, who are good at things, and who do some good things also do bad things. Sometimes they also do really bad things like rape, and they deserve to suffer the consequences, whatever those are, because nothing is worse than what the victim experiences. Good people can do bad things too. Anyone who rapes can't be that good of a person, but "goodness" and "badness" of character is not black and white. It does not negate the fact that they did something really bad.
    Edit: @Elfboy, I'm not directing this at you, just making the point.


    @Lateralus, I think pretty much everything you just said is complete BS, but I also don't think you're worth arguing with.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    these are (as far as American is concerned) valid points. personally, I immediately thought "Middle East" and "Hispanic Countries" when I read the article.
    When people throw around the term "rape culture", they're talking about the US. It's an attempt to shame people for not being overzealous in hating accused rapists. If someone is accused of rape, you're supposed to assume they're guilty until they're proven innocent, otherwise you're a supporter of rape culture. You can't even abstain. Abstention is supporting "rape culture". It turns the whole innocent until proven guilty value of Western culture on its head.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Maybe not in the same individual, but allowing acts on one end of a continuum for one individual encourages acts farther along the continuum by other individuals-
    no one is suggesting we allow either (at least, not here. I'm sure some would). it's like comparing violent crime with petty theft. different motivations, different thought patterns

    it's more of a societal slippery slope, where people don't know where to draw the line between what a person is entitled to and what s/he is not. And I'd say in your above quote it does have a sense of entitlement, which is to be in someone's privacy and to view their body without permission.
    that's not entitlement. a peeping tom is well aware that what he/she is doing is against the rules and know he/she will be punished (or at least severely socially condemned) if caught. entitlement would be if said peeping tom felt he had the right to stare at a woman's naked body without her consent.

    It's still using that person as a means to an end and not also as an end in themselves- respecting their autonomy and authority to make their own decisions about what happens to them. (Kant's notion of humanity also applies here, because the use of reason is not respected, in that a person uses reason when they make decisions about their own life.)
    by this definition, most violations of civil rights could be viewed as the same thing, but they are not. we have distinctions for a reason, because we're describing different crimes, committed for different reasons, by different types of people (if you could show me a statistic that suggested peeping toms were at high risk of becoming rapists, I would be willing to reconsider) and deserving of differing punishments (again, no one here is suggesting being a peeping tom is acceptable)

    PS:this is also an Ni vs Ne/Te thing. personally, I feel it's far more useful to break things up into loose, related categories, whereas Ni wants to come to some universal "it's all the same" moment
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