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  1. #181
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So what you want is a sham trial. It's not possible to prove you did not rape someone if you were in their physical proximity. There would be a 100% conviction rate, which would be just fine with you I'm sure. It's better to send innocent men in prison (screw the families that are destroyed in the process) than to have women testify in your perfect world.
    You took the words right out of my mouth.

  2. #182
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If the rapist is someone else, a properly employed rape kit will contain evidence to that effect.
    So then what you are saying is that if a woman accuses a man of rape, then if semen is found in the girl, then the man is automatically guilty? Is this how I am understanding it?

  3. #183
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    NO! It's not good to EVER falsely accuse anyone of anything! It's better that a few rapists go free, then for even a single innocent person to go to jail.
    I needed to quote this for posterity.

    Ladies and gentlemen, this is rape culture.

    Your "logic" makes my head hurt.

    Innocent people should never face unjust consequences. Because, they are innocent and it is unjust and unfair.
    Guilty people should not face just consequences. Because they are guilty and facing justice and consequences impacts other innocent people.

    Wtf is this idiocy????

  4. #184
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I would agree with your policy more if this was like the olden days. Say for instance, we were in the old west. Someone could be accused of raping a woman, and then they would go to jail. However, that's it, they would just simply go to jail for a while. Afterwards, to escape the social stigma of this, they could just go and live somewhere else and get a fresh, new start. However, now, if someone is falsely accused of rape, they are BRANDED a sex offender, they can't get a good job anywhere, and they are viewed as a total monster. And now because of the information age, they can't go anywhere and escape this horrible stigma. So because this is such a HORRIBLE burden on someone, I think that we need to keep our "innocent until proven guilty" stance on justice. Seriously, I would rather see a rapist go free, then to see an innocent person go to jail.
    I am fine with innocent until proven guilty. Anyone who is tried for any crime is going to face some stigma. In a perfect world, accused criminals would get a fair trial and if proven innocent, there would be no stigma. I don't think that is the case for any crime, unfortunately and it's a human problem, not a justice system or sexual assault problem. People are judgmental and they gossip.

    Are you saying that even being accused of a sex crime legally requires you to register as a sex offender? I would not agree with something like that. It's unjust. I don't want that. I want alleged victims of sex crimes to not be treated like they are the criminals. There is stigma attached to being a rape victim. People judge and gossip about them, too. I don't think, in addition to that, they should be practically on trial themselves.

    I don't want anyone innocent to go to jail. But I think something that is happening to one in six of half of our population is a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

    Do you believe that being sexually assaulted does not cause long-term consequences to people who experience it? I don't think most people would like to trade being raped for a chance at a good job, which is kind of what you are saying. That's better to be raped than it is to struggle to find a job. I think both things suck a lot, but I think your low risk for being raped is influencing your opinions. Just like my higher risk of being raped is influencing mine.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I needed to quote this for posterity.

    Ladies and gentlemen, this is rape culture.

    Your "logic" makes my head hurt.

    Innocent people should never face unjust consequences. Because, they are innocent and it is unjust and unfair.
    Guilty people should not face just consequences. Because they are guilty and facing justice and consequences impacts other innocent people.

    Wtf is this idiocy????
    This is just in: Blackstone's formulation - a core principle of criminal law - is now rape culture.
    Would you like to know more?

  6. #186
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    So then what you are saying is that if a woman accuses a man of rape, then if semen is found in the girl, then the man is automatically guilty? Is this how I am understanding it?
    If the semen doesn't match the man, he is automatically innocent. Many people have been exonerated in this manner.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #187
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    This is just in: Blackstone's formulation - a core principle of criminal law - is now rape culture.
    Would you like to know more?
    It's not just in. You will find articles for and against this "revelation". Specifically around rape.

    Rather than parroting others' thought, give me your own.

    And it cannot be challenged? Why?

    I would like to know more about why it shouldn't be challenged. Go ahead, share.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    It's not just in. You will find articles for and against this "revelation". Specifically around rape.

    Rather than parroting others' thought, give me your own.

    And it cannot be challenged? Why?

    I would like to know more about why it shouldn't be challenged. Go ahead, share.
    If the choice is between convicting all who are truly guilty at the cost of a few innocent, or preventing any innocent from being falsely convicted at the cost of a few truly guilty walking free, then the latter is the better choice.
    This should be universally applied in criminal proceedings - not just when the accusation is rape.
    Why? It comes down to your priorities: Is it more important to punish guilt than to protect innocence? Evaluate this question in the context criminal cases where the consequences of a guilty verdict is death.

  9. #189
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I needed to quote this for posterity.

    Ladies and gentlemen, this is rape culture.

    Your "logic" makes my head hurt.

    Innocent people should never face unjust consequences. Because, they are innocent and it is unjust and unfair.
    Guilty people should not face just consequences. Because they are guilty and facing justice and consequences impacts other innocent people.

    Wtf is this idiocy????
    No, if guilty of a crime then someone should go to jail, and if innocent, one should not go to jail. My point is that if given the scenario, I would rather let a guilty man go free, then to see an innocent one go to jail.

  10. #190
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smileyman View Post
    If the choice is between convicting all who are truly guilty at the cost of a few innocent, or preventing any innocent from being falsely convicted at the cost of a few truly guilty walking free, then the latter is the better choice.
    This should be universally applied - not just when the accusation is rape.
    Why? It comes down to your priorities: Is it more important to punish guilt than to protect innocence? Answer that question in the context criminal cases where the outcome of a guilty verdict is death.
    The issue with Blackstone's ratio, is that it looks at the issue solely from the lens of the defendant.

    (Side note: Not to mention that his ideas developed some fun marital laws. Which, thankfully, has been challenged and evolved. But, let's not throw the baby our with the bathwater)

    Back to his current principle:

    What one's priorities are. Protecting the innocent.

    Is it really protecting the innocent? Or, only the innocent when they are defendants? So, if 10 rapists are set free so that 1 innocent who is accused of rape is set free, what happens to the 10 innocent victims whose perpetrators are set free to potentially assult them again?

    Or, is the focus on the innocent only when the innocent is the defendant? What about the innocent victims?

    I mean, why not take it to its extreme, as a thought experiment? If we stop persecuting people for committing murder, then sure murderers will walk free, but at least the innocents falsely accused won't be mistakenly found guilty. Right?

    Now, let's take your thought experiment to me and add a layer. Yes, those found guilty will be punished by death. The accused are serial killers, who if not accurately convicted, but let free, will kill again, yet amongst the accused is one innocent (but wrongly accused of being a serial killer). What is your priority then? How far does your concern for the innocent extend? Only to the defendants or also the victims and potential victims? Answer that.

    A perfect ratio for an imperfect system. I know it's mainly to highlight 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. But really, the flaw in the ratio is glaring obvious when we broaden the scope of who represents the "innocents".

    Blackstone's ratio is not without its narrowness in scope. But, it's laughable that all that is dismissed as if it's set in stone.

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