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  1. #171
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    This too. Believe it or not, (*gasp!*) people sometimes lie.
    And false accusations will ruin someones life.

    In order to convict people you need evidence.
    Without a case, you don't get a conviction.

    It's the American way.

    If we had an absolute "zero tolerance" policy in which men would be arrested on accusations alone, many women (vindictive feminists and psycho harpies especially) would use this against innocent men who didn't commit any crimes.

    And that I cannot get behind.
    This is true, think of all the vindictive ex-girlfriends and ex-wives of men, that are angry at them, and would just lie and say that they got raped just to fuck the guy over. Just BELIEVING a woman right off the bat would be an absolutely retarded idea. And what so many people are neglecting here is that a rape charge will absolutely DESTROY your life. You will then be a sex offender, will NEVER be able to get a good job again IF any job what-so-ever and it will basically sentence you to a life of poverty, and will practically force you to become a career criminal just to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    But you do realize what kind of ordeal it is for a rape victim for a rapist to be prosecuted, right? He or she is tried nearly as much if not as much as the rapist. There are still judges that don't understand that thirteen and fourteen year olds cannot legally consent to sex with adults, even adults in positions of authority.
    And it needs to stay this way. Again, if the woman comes out of the courtroom who was raped, and loses the trial, then it was a terrible ordeal and I feel sorry for her, but life would go on for her. However, if the guy didn't rape a girl, and WAS convicted, then his life is basically now over, and is basically forced to become a criminal or live homeless and starve to death. There is a lot more on the line, for the man, then there is for the woman.

  2. #172
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    @greenfairy

    I'm not saying exactly guilty until proven innocent, but we could stand to go a lot farther in that direction without ruining anyone's life. Think about whether you have this same sort of thinking about the death penalty for murder.
    Are you kidding me lady? If someone is convicted of rape, they are given a sex offender conviction, can't ever get a good job anywhere, are sentenced to a life time of poverty, and are put on a national website and are publicly humiliated and are basically put on a wide screen that says SEX OFFENDER so that everyone will forever see them as a sick fuck. Jesus woman, what more can we do to these people? Isn't this enough?

    A lot of people are falsely convicted of murder and sentenced to death, but we still have the death penalty. If you think we still should, you'll have to agree that falsely convicting and sentencing a few alleged rapists is just as justified as falsely convicting and sentencing a few murderers.
    NO! It's not good to EVER falsely accuse anyone of anything! It's better that a few rapists go free, then for even a single innocent person to go to jail.

  3. #173
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't think you've thought this through. In your ideal world, someone who is accused of rape would automatically go to prison. No trial. Prison. Would your rule apply to everyone equally, regardless of gender? If it did, that means men could accuse women of rape, sending them to prison. Imagine if that happened to you. How would you feel if a bitter ex-boyfriend accused you of rape to get back at you, sending you to prison?
    Her logic is seriously flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This is not a good idea. It would give rapists an incentive to murder their victims. This is why punishments need to be proportional to the crime. You don't want to promote the escalation of a crime.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poindexter Arachnid View Post
    ...And you're more likely to get caught if you DO murder someone.
    Corpses and/or missing persons have a tendency to draw attention.

    Murderers immediately take precedence over rapists.

    And modern forensics are cutting edge.
    They WILL catch you, regardless of how meticulous you are in carrying it out.

    This is, of course, assuming the common rapist is a rational creature sans a narcissistic streak/God complex.
    9 times out of 10, that ship don't dock here.
    Yes, the technology is great for solving murders right now, but you watch CSI way too much. Cops don't use the lab analysts and whatnot as much as you think because it costs a great deal of money to do that. You would be surprised how many murders typically go unsolved.

  4. #174
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    And it needs to stay this way. Again, if the woman comes out of the courtroom who was raped, and loses the trial, then it was a terrible ordeal and I feel sorry for her, but life would go on for her. However, if the guy didn't rape a girl, and WAS convicted, then his life is basically now over, and is basically forced to become a criminal or live homeless and starve to death. There is a lot more on the line, for the man, then there is for the woman.
    I can't agree that a rape victim should be treated like a suspect. The conviction rate for sexual assault compared to the incidence is very low. When convictions occur, sentences are often very short. There are false rape convictions, but it usually has to do with flaws in our justice system that effect all levels of crime: race and class are bigger factors than guilt or innocence. Race and class are bigger factors than the severity of the crime in sentencing.

    I don't want false convictions. I do want rapists off the streets and for potential rapists to know that there are consequences. Right now, that's rarely the case.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #175
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    @greenfairy

    I said guilty unless there is a reasonable doubt, with a trial. And a fair investigation. Just not a bunch of interrogation of the victim; we should interrogate the defendant first, and try to find holes in his story. Ask the victim questions, but don't put the burden of proof all on her. Turn it around and have the same suspicion of him lying as her.
    This is down right unconstitutional. In case you haven't heard, the law says that people are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, not GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT. Your take on justice is just plain, fucked up.

    Victims are often traumatized by having to talk about their experiences in court in front of people in their community, people not believing them, and their reputations being ruined sometimes. Their sex lives are often ruined, and they have issues with trust their whole lives. Many commit suicide.
    Edit: There was this one girl who got raped by this guy and his bunch of high school or college friends stood around and watched and they took photos and videos. If those are still around, that could be really bad for her future career.
    I guess in your happy world, we just say, well she said she was raped, let's just throw the main in jail and make him a sex offender, because we just HAVE to believe her.....UMMM...NOOO.

    I think it would be better than the shabby system of injustice we have right now. Rape would be less prevalent.
    Yes, but crime would be even more prevalent. The police want to make you think that the reason that people are career criminals is because they are just horrible people, who just don't know when to stop. However, the truth is that many people learn from their mistakes and want to make a better life for themselves, but they can't because now they are branded a "felon" and no one wants to give them a job because of it. And then they are forced to stay a criminal and continue to do horrible deeds just to be able to pay the bills. Under your shotty system, there would be a lot more felons that couldn't get jobs, and as a result there would be a much higher crime rate.

    Hell, your justice system is so stupid, that you might as well do it the Starke way from "Game of Thrones" and have a "guilty until proven innocent" stance with every victim. Then, when it is time, pick someone that will fight for the victim, and someone that will fight for the defendent, and if the defendent's fighter wins, then they are free to go.

  6. #176
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I can't agree that a rape victim should be treated like a suspect. The conviction rate for sexual assault compared to the incidence is very low. When convictions occur, sentences are often very short. There are false rape convictions, but it usually has to do with flaws in our justice system that effect all levels of crime: race and class are bigger factors than guilt or innocence. Race and class are bigger factors than the severity of the crime in sentencing.

    I don't want false convictions. I do want rapists off the streets and for potential rapists to know that there are consequences. Right now, that's rarely the case.
    The real punishment isn't gong to jail, it is being labeled a "sex offender" for the rest of their life, and never being able to get a good job again.

  7. #177
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    The real punishment isn't gong to jail, it is being labeled a "sex offender" for the rest of their life, and never being able to get a good job again.
    That is a problem with our justice system across the board. It is worse for people labeled sex offenders, yes, but anyone with any kind of felony conviction is subject to job discrimination. Sex offenders have the added difficulties of having only limited places they can live. Poor people and racial minorities are disproportionally prosecuted. It's a huge problem. Sexual assault is seriously underreported and has a pretty low conviction rate when it is reported. That's also a huge problem. We need to fix both. Subjecting victims of sexual assault to additional trauma fixes nothing.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #178
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post

    And it needs to stay this way. Again, if the woman comes out of the courtroom who was raped, and loses the trial, then it was a terrible ordeal and I feel sorry for her, but life would go on for her. However, if the guy didn't rape a girl, and WAS convicted, then his life is basically now over, and is basically forced to become a criminal or live homeless and starve to death. There is a lot more on the line, for the man, then there is for the woman.
    Wow. Trivialising the impact of rape for a victim. In a thread about rape culture. It takes a special brand of talent to be this accidentally ironic.

  9. #179
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That is a problem with our justice system across the board. It is worse for people labeled sex offenders, yes, but anyone with any kind of felony conviction is subject to job discrimination. Sex offenders have the added difficulties of having only limited places they can live. Poor people and racial minorities are disproportionally prosecuted. It's a huge problem. Sexual assault is seriously underreported and has a pretty low conviction rate when it is reported. That's also a huge problem. We need to fix both. Subjecting victims of sexual assault to additional trauma fixes nothing.
    I would agree with your policy more if this was like the olden days. Say for instance, we were in the old west. Someone could be accused of raping a woman, and then they would go to jail. However, that's it, they would just simply go to jail for a while. Afterwards, to escape the social stigma of this, they could just go and live somewhere else and get a fresh, new start. However, now, if someone is falsely accused of rape, they are BRANDED a sex offender, they can't get a good job anywhere, and they are viewed as a total monster. And now because of the information age, they can't go anywhere and escape this horrible stigma. So because this is such a HORRIBLE burden on someone, I think that we need to keep our "innocent until proven guilty" stance on justice. Seriously, I would rather see a rapist go free, then to see an innocent person go to jail.

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Wow. Trivialising the impact of rape for a victim. In a thread about rape culture. It takes a special brand of talent to be this accidentally ironic.
    If the woman was raped, and the rapist went free, it would be awful for her, I agree. However, she could get counseling and get help, and could eventually go back to living a normal life. However, if an innocent person was convicted of rape, and became a sex offender, there life is basically over. They are just about fucked for life.

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