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  1. #161
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    To me, the link to the mindset is crucial. The moment someone finds it ok to invade another person's personal space and even touch their body, while they are displaying evasive behaviour, cringing and even right out ignoring their verbalised 'No'... That mindset is exactly the thing that leads to treating a person like your personal playground. Your own amusement park. Be it for beating them up, bullying them with humiliating situations, taking out your frustration on them physically (as the other thread on women beating men shows) or raping them. Coz in their mind, their pleasure/wants trumps the wishes and rights of the now object they're playing with.
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  2. #162
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    been back 5 minutes; already sick of these click-bait threads.

  3. #163
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    To me, the link to the mindset is crucial. The moment someone finds it ok to invade another person's personal space and even touch their body, while they are displaying evasive behaviour, cringing and even right out ignoring their verbalised 'No'... That mindset is exactly the thing that leads to treating a person like your personal playground. Your own amusement park. Be it for beating them up, bullying them with humiliating situations, taking out your frustration on them physically (as the other thread on women beating men shows) or raping them. Coz in their mind, their pleasure/wants trumps the wishes and rights of the now object they're playing with.
    @greenfairy (and anyone else): this is exactly my point here. These behaviors are unacceptable in and of themselves, whether or not they will lead to rape. The less we tolerate them, the more we set a standard for personal respect that leaves rape and more serious violations very exposed, and tells those guys inclined to these offenses that it won't be tolerated.
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  4. #164
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    LOL. And the rich giving to the poor solves poverty. How naive and simplistic of you.
    Did I say that?

    And you're accusing me of disjointed communication? What made you assume that rape is THE MOST IMPORTANT problem for me?
    You strike me as the type. I could be wrong, but I'm usually right. If I'm wrong, oh well, but I don't think I am because you think rape victim blaming is unique.

    Grasping at straws, are we? Ignoring reality does not make your point valid. It was a ridiculous example to counter my point.

    Do you know what confounders are? Without controlling for them, you cannot infer causality.

    Racism was a significant confounder in the outcome of Trayvon's murder trial. Thus, simply ignoring it, negates you from drawing a causality between murder and blaming the victim.

    Congratulations for being right in your made-up world.

    I'll stick to reality.
    Your argument makes no sense. You say murder victims aren't blamed. I point out an instance where a murder victim was blamed and you say "No, that doesn't count because racism". Rape victim blaming happens because of sexism. I fail to see the difference. In both cases, prejudiced assholes are running their mouths when they shouldn't.

    Here's a video clip of the view where women on national television are making fun of a man for getting his penis cut off. Does that not count either?

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  5. #165
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your argument makes no sense. You say murder victims aren't blamed. I point out an instance where a murder victim was blamed and you say "No, that doesn't count because racism". Rape victim blaming happens because of sexism. I fail to see the difference. In both cases, prejudiced assholes are running their mouths when they shouldn't
    One example does not establish a trend or rule. In any case, you yourself explained the commonality of these experiences when you observed that the demographic on the low end of the power imbalance will be blamed when a victim of crime. This is often women, and sometimes blacks, latinos, gays, or another marginalized group.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #166
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    @greenfairy (and anyone else): this is exactly my point here. These behaviors are unacceptable in and of themselves, whether or not they will lead to rape. The less we tolerate them, the more we set a standard for personal respect that leaves rape and more serious violations very exposed, and tells those guys inclined to these offenses that it won't be tolerated.
    Agreed!

  7. #167
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    As I've said before, I think there needs to be a lot more education on what consent is and isn't. I think replacing the concept of "consent" with "enthusiastic consent" would be a good start.

    How many teen movies/tv shows have you seen where the guy is doing his best to wear down his girlfriend's opposition to sex, and where that opposition is depicted as prudish or overly idealistic or a reaction to his lack of experience/expertise? How many of these movies/tv shows have the girl getting more and more into it after the guy has finally worn down her opposition? How many guys are getting the message that women want to have sex as much as they do, and that faux opposition to sex is a normal fiction presented by women whose only real concern is not being seen as a slut? How many men will take that to mean that a lack of consent in certain circumstances (eg his bedroom) is just a game she's playing and therefore not real? How many men have been taught that dating is a game which, if played correctly, ends in sex? How many men take that to mean that if they follow the rules as they see them they are entitled to sex? How many men are being taught by how many movies/tv shows that alcohol is a good way to prime a girl for sex, and that drunk girls more often than not are up for it?

    How many guys are taking all this to mean that women are secretly always up for it, all the time, and that resistance is purely cosmetic? How many guys think they see a familiar narrative indicative of sex, and guess wrong?

    As has been said, I don't think the problem with our culture is that people think rape is ok. I think it's that they don't know what rape is. There's far too much "gray area" between being a smooth, sexually confident, assertive guy, proficient in navigating the muddy waters of women's fantasies, insecurities and bullshit, and being a rapist. In that sense I see evidence of a rape culture, even without looking into judicial systems.
    Last edited by JivinJeffJones; 04-06-2014 at 08:58 PM.

  8. #168
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    As I've said before, I think there needs to be a lot more education on what consent is and isn't. I think replacing the concept of "consent" with "enthusiastic consent" would be a good start.

    How many teen movies/tv shows have you seen where the guy is doing his best to wear down his girlfriend's opposition to sex, and where that opposition is depicted as prudish or overly idealistic or a reaction to his lack of experience/expertise? How many of these movies/tv shows have the girl getting more and more into it after the guy has finally worn down her opposition? How many guys are getting the message that women want to have sex as much as they do, and that faux opposition to sex is a normal fiction presented by women whose only real concern is not being seen as a slut? How many men will take that to mean that a lack of consent in certain circumstances (eg his bedroom) is just a game she's playing and therefore not real? How many men have been taught that dating is a game which, if played correctly, ends in sex? How many men take that to mean that if they follow the rules as they see them they are entitled to sex? How many men are being taught by how many movies/tv shows that alcohol is a good way to prime a girl for sex, and that drunk girls more often than not are up for it? How many guys are taking all this to mean that women are secretly always up for it, all the time, and that resistance is purely cosmetic? How many guys think they see a familiar narrative indicative of sex, and guess wrong?

    As has been said, I don't think the problem with our culture is that people think rape is ok. I think it's that they don't know what rape is. There's far too much "gray area" between being a smooth, sexually confident, assertive guy, proficient in navigating the muddy waters of women's fantasies, insecurities and bullshit, and being a rapist. In that sense I see a evidence of a rape culture, even without looking into judicial systems.
    Really, really well said.

    And that isn't even trying to muddy the waters with the fact that many of those things are depicting actual situations and scenarios--the best jokes are the ones with some truth in it. (Not calling rape a joke, it's just a saying.) There are plenty of girls who really do want sex as much as the guy does, and want the guy to continue to pursue because it's a sign that they aren't viewing them as a total slut, but just really into them. It's a crazy, gray area.

    I like this quote a lot.. "The only difference between being romantic and being a creep is how attracted the other person is to you."

    Talking about rape is a really taboo thing here in America, I'm unsure of elsewhere.. but it's almost like one of those things where you just cannot have an opinion about it. If you even sound remotely like you're playing with the boundary lines, you're going to be looked at as a rapist by someone. Most people are NOT okay with what is viewed as rape. And most people are not sexually instinctive, assertive individuals that can definitely tell Yes from No all the time. That gray area is where society has trouble talking about outside of what's 'normal' in a particular subgroup--because no one wants to accidentally touch the rape side with a 10 foot pole. It's fine for club-goers to say "Yeah, I kept trying man, and like.. she kept saying no, but you know she liked my selfie on FB and then we went home after she had more drinks." But for say, example, your stereotypical hippy who got dragged along with friends, they'd be really creeped out by the exact same tactics.
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  9. #169
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    As I've said before, I think there needs to be a lot more education on what consent is and isn't. I think replacing the concept of "consent" with "enthusiastic consent" would be a good start.

    How many teen movies/tv shows have you seen where the guy is doing his best to wear down his girlfriend's opposition to sex, and where that opposition is depicted as prudish or overly idealistic or a reaction to his lack of experience/expertise? How many of these movies/tv shows have the girl getting more and more into it after the guy has finally worn down her opposition? How many guys are getting the message that women want to have sex as much as they do, and that faux opposition to sex is a normal fiction presented by women whose only real concern is not being seen as a slut? How many men will take that to mean that a lack of consent in certain circumstances (eg his bedroom) is just a game she's playing and therefore not real? How many men have been taught that dating is a game which, if played correctly, ends in sex? How many men take that to mean that if they follow the rules as they see them they are entitled to sex? How many men are being taught by how many movies/tv shows that alcohol is a good way to prime a girl for sex, and that drunk girls more often than not are up for it? How many guys are taking all this to mean that women are secretly always up for it, all the time, and that resistance is purely cosmetic? How many guys think they see a familiar narrative indicative of sex, and guess wrong?

    As has been said, I don't think the problem with our culture is that people think rape is ok. I think it's that they don't know what rape is. There's far too much "gray area" between being a smooth, sexually confident, assertive guy, proficient in navigating the muddy waters of women's fantasies, insecurities and bullshit, and being a rapist. In that sense I see a evidence of a rape culture, even without looking into judicial systems.
    Yes, for sure.
    @kyuuei, I agree. Rape culture indoctrinates women too that these behaviors along the spectrum of sexual violence and control are the norm. If a woman is not taught to own her body and sexuality or if she is sexually abused growing up, she may associate sexually controlling and violent behavior with love. And women are still taught that they should give up ownership and control of their sexuality to men, that women should be passive and chaste and men should be assertive and sensual.

  10. #170
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Did I say that?
    Response:

    You strike me as the type. I could be wrong, but I'm usually right. If I'm wrong, oh well, but I don't think I am because you think murder victim blaming happens, simply because they are murdered, and for no other reasons.
    So, I can see you believing that poverty can be solved SIMPLY by the Robin Hood method of economics.


    ***********
    Your argument makes no sense. You say murder victims aren't blamed.
    That's not what my original point was. Go back and re-read it, and understand the context of my point.

    One last try:
    The existence of a "murder culture" would be valid if a victim of murder was blamed simply because they got murdered. Not for any other reason, but because they were murdered. As such, the independent variable (murder) explains or predicts the dependent variable (blaming of the victim). Testing it out in real life, we see that it does not.
    There are other variables that explains the dependent, variable of "blaming the victim", like racism, classism, sexism, all your other fruitless "isms", which you're so fond of sweeping under the rug, as if they don't exist to make any real impact. Without taking these variables into account, blaming the victim for murder is basically unheard of, as part of our culture.

    Using that exact same analogy towards "rape culture" now. Rape culture would be valid if a victim of rape is blamed simply because they got raped. Not for any other reason, but because they "let themselves" be raped. As such, the independent variable (rape) explains or predicts the dependent variable (blaming the victim). Testing it out in real life, we see that it does. Unfortunately, quite often.
    There can be other variables that may explain the dependent variable of "blaming the victim", like racism, classism, etc., but even WITHOUT these variables, the independent variable does, in real life, explain the original dependent variable: "blaming the victim" in rape cases. I.e., even without taking these variables into account, blaming the victim for rape is heard of, as part of our culture, all too often.

    A white girl is raped. A black girl is raped. Regardless of their race, there is a chance that they will be blamed for their part in letting the rape happen.

    As you will see, I left out sexism from the rape culture analogy, because.........
    Rape victim blaming happens because of sexism.
    Sexism contributes to rape culture! This is one of the main points of rape culture. Sexism is not OUTSIDE of rape culture, it is part of the dialogue WITHIN rape culture.

    You really should understand the basic premise of a topic, before you fumble to tear it down or dismiss it. Otherwise, it makes you look disingenuous.


    Here's a video clip of the view where women on national television are making fun of a man for getting his penis cut off. Does that not count either?
    Of course it does, and if you understood what rape culture is, you wouldn't ask such a redundant question. It is trivializing sexual violence. So, of course it counts. Males are not the only perpetrators of rape culture, women are, too.

    I'm tired of explaining the obvious analogy for the third time, because you mangle it to fit a myopic view, then counter that myopic view, as if that was the point of my argument. I will not resort to explaining via picture books. That's where I draw the line.

    So, I'm done.

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