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  1. #151
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'd define it in terms of entirely changing our mating patterns: until participants reach a mutually accepted strategy that doesn't involve play-acting male predators as a mating strategy. Almost all of our mating behaviour revolves around it, even the soft stuff (who asks who, play hard to get, who pays for who, etc). It's slowly happening (even this outcry against rape culture is just part of the transition).
    I agree with all of what you said here, but especially this. Absolutely.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That's called racism. Which is also a problem. Just like rape culture. Racism does not negate rape culture, as its own phenomenon. I fail to see what your point is.
    Then you must have forgotten what you wrote.

    Do we tell the family of the murder victim, or a victim, whose life has been attempted on, that it's their fault? That they were asking for it? Because of the provocative, murder inducing clothes they were wearing? Or because they got too drunk, at a party, that it might be a gray area, where it really shouldn't be a surprise that they got their throat slashed? That they're making it up?
    I pointed out an example where exactly that happened, and now you're trying to obfuscate.

    You mean abuse of power in a privileged position? Yes, rape culture does tap into that, too. As does, not surprisingly, feminist discourse. Thanks for pointing this out.
    Thanks for pointing out something that you just said doesn't happen? That's odd.

    A culture of violence breeds rape culture. It is a subset that has its unique issues tied to the female's identity within our society. If you don't think that focusing on this is that important to you, that's on you. Still, it doesn't make any commentary on its nonexistence.
    You just posted a diatribe about how rape is unique, then I point out how rape is not unique and you act like it was your idea? You're so disingenuous.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #153
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What happens with rape victims is not unique. That's how our society treats all victims. We have a society that worships power and spits on the powerless. Remember the 47% comments from the last presidential election? It's all part of the same mindset.
    There is some validity to this. The power balance between men and women has so long been on the side of men, that what lingers today as "rape culture" is indeed related to the idea of spitting on the powerless.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's more complicated than that, even in principle. It assumes items like "what they want" is a tangibly defined thing - what they want is socially defined, nebulous and often below awareness. They are taught that sex is immoral/forbidden/etc., hence they want, but don't want, sex... institutionalized guilt. This is a major "root" issue. And this isn't something you can raise around - it's media, religion, culture, friends... it's social ostracization if you defect. Expressing wants is great, but is wanting tangible? Then we can talk about women wanting to be attractive (who doesn't), but is that want something that encourages society to objectify women? They also want to be appreciated, and sex (especially at a young age) is validation. Working towards that seems counter productive?(*) It the valuation side that matters in this case, so do we train "men" to value other things, or does that go against them just expressing what they want? As for responsibility, maybe women should take responsibility for getting drunk and leading men on...? Perhaps you didn't mean that kind of responsibility, but the kind where the partner is suppose to know their state and responsibly not take part? Being responsible is just too open to be an applies solution.
    Actually, the principle is very simple; it's the implementation that is complex an extraordinarily challenging, for the reasons you mention. Perhaps we cannot raise people out of these harmful mindsets, but we don't help matters by raising them within them. The world is full of people who learned better from parents, or even a teacher or coach. It is better to do what we can than not to even try out of fear that it can never be enough.

    Regarding responsibility: this is exactly what I meant, or part of it. So many of these situations are blamed on drunkenness, for instance, yet everyone knows one is more likely to do stupid things and make poorer decisions while drunk. Men and women both need to learn some self-control, and appreciation for simple cause and effect. (@Greenfairy: I never limited responsibility here to oneself. )

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's a horribly loaded situation and there are no easy answers (or changes). Even the goal isn't clear. I'd define it in terms of entirely changing our mating patterns: until participants reach a mutually accepted strategy that doesn't involve play-acting male predators as a mating strategy. Almost all of our mating behaviour revolves around it, even the soft stuff (who asks who, play hard to get, who pays for who, etc). It's slowly happening (even this outcry against rape culture is just part of the transition).
    This is all part of it. People who think matters like who pays for dates are trivial don't realize that they are just symptoms of an underlying mentality that fuels far more harmful behaviors.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #154
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then you must have forgotten what you wrote.



    I pointed out an example where exactly that happened, and now you're trying to obfuscate.


    Thanks for pointing out something that you just said doesn't happen? That's odd.


    You just posted a diatribe about how rape is unique, then I point out how rape is not unique and you act like it was your idea? You're so disingenuous.
    You're slow on the uptake. Or being purposely dense.

    A "murder culture".

    Racism. Sexism. All of that may very well be manifested in a "murder culture". However, they have other issues contributing to them, that are unique in creating a culture. There's nothing unique in a "murder culture", that systematically upholds it. Maybe, violence, for which there is a movement called pacifism. Hence, why it is in quotes. Today's focus is on rape culture. Not racism.

    Trayvon Martin got murdered. White dude got murdered. Trayvon Martin's killer faced no justice because of racism. White dude's murderer faced no justice because of something other than racism. The difference here is race was the determining factor. Not the murder.

    To put it simply:


    Bob is a man != Man is Bob.

  5. #155
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Oh I'm so glad there's such good conversation about this, and it's not just me talking to a wall.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You're slow on the uptake. Or being purposely dense.
    No, I think you need to communicate your ideas more clearly. Your way of communicating is very disjointed, with lots of holes.

    A "murder culture".

    Racism. Sexism. All of that may very well be manifested in a "murder culture". However, they have other issues contributing to them, that are unique in creating a culture. There's nothing unique in a "murder culture", that systematically upholds it. Maybe, violence, for which there is a movement called pacifism. Hence, why it is in quotes. Today's focus is on rape culture. Not racism.
    Focusing on sexism, racism, or any other "ism" is a fruitless exercise. The problem can always be reduced to a lack of empathy. You're female so you want to focus on rape. I get it. In your mind, that's the most important problem.

    Trayvon Martin got murdered. White dude got murdered. Trayvon Martin's killer faced no justice because of racism. White dude's murderer faced no justice because of something other than racism. The difference here is race was the determining factor. Not the murder.
    Trayvon's race is irrelevant as it pertains to this discussion. What's relevant is the crime. He was murdered, the murder was justified. The victim was blamed. That's something you said does not happen with murder. You said that only happens with rape. You were wrong. Admit it and move on.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #157
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, I think you need to communicate your ideas more clearly. Your way of communicating is very disjointed, with lots of holes.
    This reminds me of a course where they told us to communicate to the common public as if speaking to the understanding of an 8th grader. My apologies.


    Focusing on sexism, racism, or any other "ism" is a fruitless exercise. The problem can always be reduced to a lack of empathy.
    LOL. And the rich giving to the poor solves poverty. How naive and simplistic of you.

    You're female so you want to focus on rape. I get it. In your mind, that's the most important problem.
    And you're accusing me of disjointed communication? What made you assume that rape is THE MOST IMPORTANT problem for me?


    Trayvon's race is irrelevant as it pertains to this discussion. What's relevant is the crime. He was murdered, the murder was justified. The victim was blamed. That's something you said does not happen with murder. You said that only happens with rape. You were wrong. Admit it and move on.
    Grasping at straws, are we? Ignoring reality does not make your point valid. It was a ridiculous example to counter my point.

    Do you know what confounders are? Without controlling for them, you cannot infer causality.

    Racism was a significant confounder in the outcome of Trayvon's murder trial. Thus, simply ignoring it, negates you from drawing a causality between murder and blaming the victim.

    Congratulations for being right in your made-up world.

    I'll stick to reality.

  8. #158
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I live every day with the knowledge that half of the population can hit me and not only face no repercussions, I'll be mocked. I live every day with the knowledge that if I don't bow my head in deference to the police, I'm likely to be beaten and arrested (if I'm luckier than the homeless guy in Albuquerque), ruining any chance I have of future employment. And the worst part is, I cannot talk about it because if I do, I'm told I must have deserved it somehow. It's not even an ego boost to get this type of attention. It's all negative.

    I've never claimed that men have it worse than women. What I have a problem with is this idea that women have it soooooooo much worse than men that the world must stop. That view can only exist in a culture that is ignorant and lacks empathy. Let's call it Assault and Murder Culture. I couldn't think of a catchier name.
    I never held that view. I'm with you on those things needing addressing for both men *AND* women. Heck, I don't know what it is like being a man, I'm all for being told so. But do NOT dismiss or ignore the fact that this is *my* reality, as a woman. Please. And of course, you can share the same for you. I also think it is important to look at what causes that daily threat and how it is experienced'. Do you find gang members blocking your route to home, swishing knives? Is it just the neighbourhood? Or is this purely based on the statistics you've read?

    I believe the statistics of rape are one out of three in my own home town.
    And while I didn't pick the name, and understand what kind of visceral reaction it triggers in people, I'm not entirely against it. Because the pushing of boundaries, the refusal to hear a no, to containing you with sheer presence and the threat of doing it physically by a group of 3 men coz they 'wanna talk to you', the insistence on getting your address and the fact that they feel they can possessively put an arm around you in the street...Im sorry, but I don't have time in that situation to gauge how far he'll take the ignoring of my 'no', the breaking of my personal boundaries and what he is and isn't capable of. He might not be capable of r ape, he might just be having fun.

    But the core of it is, that he is displaying all the precursors - he is already in my personal space, and has made it clear that 'no' doesn't mean a thing to him. I have no way of knowing if it will escalate, if it will enrage his entitled ass if I actually stand up for myself. So yes, it is the beginnings of a rapist's attitude. He might never do it, but the fact that he feels he is entitled to touch my body, and stay where he isn't wanted, to keep me where I don't wanna be...that's power abuse, entitlement and predatory behaviour, right there. And this shit happened to me an average of 3 times a day. Are you going to tell me that I shouldn't live in fear? Truly? That this mindset they are displaying isn't in any way linked to the power trip and control that drives a rapist - just with a different intensity at this particular point?

    At what point do i become a paranoid person? And at what point am I a foolish one for not seeing the signs - which then will be used against me in court? And at what point do I just stay home and not bother at all to face these guys ever day and become pretty much a prisoner in my own house?

    Tell me that this issue isn't legitimate.
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  9. #159
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    But the core of it is, that he is displaying all the precursors - he is already in my personal space, and has made it clear that 'no' doesn't mean a thing to him. I have no way of knowing if it will escalate, if it will enrage his entitled ass if I actually stand up for myself. So yes, it is the beginnings of a rapist's attitude. He might never do it, but the fact that he feels he is entitled to touch my body, and stay where he isn't wanted, to keep me where I don't wanna be...that's power abuse, entitlement and predatory behaviour, right there. And this shit happened to me an average of 3 times a day. Are you going to tell me that I shouldn't live in fear? Truly? That this mindset they are displaying isn't in any way linked to the power trip and control that drives a rapist - just with a different intensity at this particular point?
    Most of the guys behaving this way may very well not be rapists. But the society that tolerates this lower-level behavior makes it easy for those who are rapists to get close to victims without arousing much suspicion. This is rape culture.

    I have read that communities that are tough on low-level crime like vandalism and public drunkenness have lower rates of more serious crime like robbery and assault. It sets the threshold for what is going to be tolerated in that community. It can work the same with rape, too.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #160
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Most of the guys behaving this way may very well not be rapists. But the society that tolerates this lower-level behavior makes it easy for those who are rapists to get close to victims without arousing much suspicion. This is rape culture.

    I have read that communities that are tough on low-level crime like vandalism and public drunkenness have lower rates of more serious crime like robbery and assault. It sets the threshold for what is going to be tolerated in that community. It can work the same with rape, too.
    True, but these are all signs that rapists actually do display. Especially the boundary testing. So one can't assume, but it's good to look for them.

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