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  1. #141
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I don't think educating someone about rape has any impact on whether they choose or want to do it.
    You don't believe education can have any effect? That makes no sense given everything you've said in this thread.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #142
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Maybe statistically you are at greater risk for violent crimes. I hwever lived every day with the knowledge that if I stepped outside, men would and could invade my space and ignore my 'no' on precursors that put me at risk.

    I tell ya. It is hard not to live in fear. And the worst part is - you cannot talk about it coz you get told youre just showing off and like the attention. If it happens, it is your fault and you secretly enjoy it.

    Im not going to deny that it is an ego boost especially in the beginning but the willful invasion of space and the deaf ear to a no and demand on your time for fear you migh escalate the situation is exhausting and not worth it.
    I live every day with the knowledge that half of the population can hit me and not only face no repercussions, I'll be mocked. I live every day with the knowledge that if I don't bow my head in deference to the police, I'm likely to be beaten and arrested (if I'm luckier than the homeless guy in Albuquerque), ruining any chance I have of future employment. And the worst part is, I cannot talk about it because if I do, I'm told I must have deserved it somehow. It's not even an ego boost to get this type of attention. It's all negative.

    I've never claimed that men have it worse than women. What I have a problem with is this idea that women have it soooooooo much worse than men that the world must stop. That view can only exist in a culture that is ignorant and lacks empathy. Let's call it Assault and Murder Culture. I couldn't think of a catchier name.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #143
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The question is how you deal with it. Law won't fix it and to use it like that turns it into a weapon. Of course, it should be used to the full extent that it can be, without adjusting the core principles (including procedural things, like presentation of evidence, etc.)
    We raise women to know what they want and to speak up for it. We raise men to believe what women are saying. We raise everyone to take control of themselves, take responsibility for their actions and be aware of the real risks and consequences of their actions. That's how we start to replace rape culture (and Lateralus' assault and murder culture) with a culture of responsibility.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #144
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    To add: on the flip side of the spectrum, if you're a supporter of rape culture, that doesn't necessarily make you a rapist, how ridiculous.
    There are many people who would disagree with you on that. Assume that words = violence, then extrapolate.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #145
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There are many people who would disagree with you on that. Assume that words = violence, then extrapolate.
    As I said before, an apologist, in most cases. "Oh, boys will be boys."

    Ignorant, for the rest, except for the rare cases (statistically speaking) where one acts upon it, I.e., truly are a rapist.

    Those individuals, who, due to complacency with the hegemonic culture and/or ignorance, end up supporting ideas, thoughts, actions and policies that reinforce the rape culture; calling them rapists trivialises what rape truly is. It actually feeds into the rape culture. Along the same vein of using language that trivialise the act of rape.

    To note, I'm speaking of N. America, not generalizing to other countries.
    *****

    Also, a commentary about why, if there is a rape culture, there isn't a "murder culture" being spoken about.

    There's quite a few key points:
    - literally speaking: rape (including attempted rape) is more prevalent than murder,
    - Looking through the lens of advantaged/disadvantaged groups, murder more frequently happen between individuals of the same sociodemographic background, while for rape, when it comes to sex, obviously, they're skewed between the perpetrator and victim (98% perpetrators/rapists are male, while victims, significantly, are females).
    - and to me, the crux of the point, the key difference, that really taps into the need to identify and raise awareness about rape culture: victim doubting, victim blaming, shame.

    Do we tell the family of the murder victim, or a victim, whose life has been attempted on, that it's their fault? That they were asking for it? Because of the provocative, murder inducing clothes they were wearing? Or because they got too drunk, at a party, that it might be a gray area, where it really shouldn't be a surprise that they got their throat slashed? That they're making it up?

    Legitimacy. One is SIGNIFICANTLY afforded it, the other is not. From the innocuous use of our language all the way to policies and laws.

    Murder happens within our culture. We don't condone it. By law. Ever. No gray areas. Rape is questioned in terms of its legitimacy (were you asking for it?). By law. The question of its legitimacy, compared to murder (even attempted murder), happen within our culture.As such, it *is* our current culture.

    Maybe I should start a thread in the Sexuality section: Ladies, have you ever fantasized about being murdered? Having violence inflicted upon you?

    Not ludicrous at all, is it? If the answer is a resounding "yes", well, there you go....that's the difference.

  6. #146
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Or friends hear it, or family, or educators, or employers. Rumor is rumor. It doesn't need to be convicted or even validated. I hope you are not under the impression that most people would just shrug something like that off. Normal society universally condemns it. There are areas where things are bad, absolutely, but it isn't society at large that accepts it. Even the suggestion of it has serious implications.
    Consider also the fact that the victim's reputation is often just as threatened because of our culture of victim-blaming. You can't really have a neutral outcome. Either one person is viewed as a rapist or the other is viewed as a liar and a crazy slut. Not to mention that not having validation from authority figures that something did happen, even if no one person is convicted, is extremely damaging to a victim's psychological and emotional health.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Absolutely not. Profiling like that is dangerous, ineffective and unethical. It doesn't exist anywhere.
    Well I've heard it exists from a reliable source, and it's meant to improve the quality of rape investigation. It's still new, so I can't say much about it other than to say I think it's moving in the right direction. Probably not perfect and it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

    I do think we agree in essence, so I will leave the fine points for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You don't believe education can have any effect? That makes no sense given everything you've said in this thread.
    I don't think education can have a negative effect. Is that what you're implying?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I live every day with the knowledge that half of the population can hit me and not only face no repercussions, I'll be mocked. I live every day with the knowledge that if I don't bow my head in deference to the police, I'm likely to be beaten and arrested (if I'm luckier than the homeless guy in Albuquerque), ruining any chance I have of future employment. And the worst part is, I cannot talk about it because if I do, I'm told I must have deserved it somehow. It's not even an ego boost to get this type of attention. It's all negative.

    I've never claimed that men have it worse than women. What I have a problem with is this idea that women have it soooooooo much worse than men that the world must stop. That view can only exist in a culture that is ignorant and lacks empathy. Let's call it Assault and Murder Culture. I couldn't think of a catchier name.
    Lateralus, you do make a good point here. Some men have it just as bad or worse than some women, but that's why we like to talk about intersecting oppressions. However, this does not mean we don't have a rape culture or a murder culture; we have both. Whatever cultures we have which make up the cultural soup are compounded by (and often a byproduct of) the fact that we live in a racist, classist patriarchy. Culture is multi-layered and multi-faceted.

  7. #147
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Can you really say all that about murder with a straight face in a nation where the George Zimmerman walks freely? Trayvon Martin was "dressed like a thug".

    Every time I watch a video of police brutality (99.9999% of which is directed at males), there are countless people who say things like "that's what you get...".

    What happens with rape victims is not unique. That's how our society treats all victims. We have a society that worships power and spits on the powerless. Remember the 47% comments from the last presidential election? It's all part of the same mindset.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #148
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Can you really say all that about murder with a straight face in a nation where the George Zimmerman walks freely? Trayvon Martin was "dressed like a thug".
    That's called racism. Which is also a problem. Just like rape culture. Racism does not negate rape culture, as its own phenomenon. I fail to see what your point is.

    Every time I watch a video of police brutality (99.9999% of which is directed at males), there are countless people who say things like "that's what you get...".
    You mean abuse of power in a privileged position? Yes, rape culture does tap into that, too. As does, not surprisingly, feminist discourse. Thanks for pointing this out.

    What happens with rape victims is not unique. That's how our society treats all victims. We have a society that worships power and spits on the powerless. Remember the 47% comments from the last presidential election? It's all part of the same mindset.
    A culture of violence breeds rape culture. It is a subset that has its unique issues tied to the female's identity (and, male idenity, as the flip side of the same coin) within our society. If you don't think that focusing on this is that important to you, that's on you. Still, it doesn't make any commentary on its nonexistence.

  9. #149
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We raise women to know what they want and to speak up for it. We raise men to believe what women are saying. We raise everyone to take control of themselves, take responsibility for their actions and be aware of the real risks and consequences of their actions. That's how we start to replace rape culture (and Lateralus' assault and murder culture) with a culture of responsibility.
    I would add taking responsibility for others when reasonable. Many people are afraid to interfere in situations in which it would be very helpful. Of course it's important to not to take this too far, but simply being aware of the common characteristics and behavior of rapists, noticing if this person is displaying these behaviors with a specific person, and then simply offering the person some support and calling the other person out publicly (like 'hey, she said no' or 'stop it, you're being a jerk' or something of that nature) does a lot of good. A lot of rapes are committed using alcohol, so I think a good strategy is to train bouncers at clubs and bars to spot these behaviors and intervene. They could also have a safe ride home available if someone gets too drunk. And of course giving emotional support to someone (female or male) when they confide in you is helpful.

  10. #150
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We raise women to know what they want and to speak up for it. We raise men to believe what women are saying. We raise everyone to take control of themselves, take responsibility for their actions and be aware of the real risks and consequences of their actions. That's how we start to replace rape culture (and Lateralus' assault and murder culture) with a culture of responsibility.
    Any chance we could raise men to know what they want? I still struggle with that. And I'd like women to believe what I say too...

    It's more complicated than that, even in principle. It assumes items like "what they want" is a tangibly defined thing - what they want is socially defined, nebulous and often below awareness. They are taught that sex is immoral/forbidden/etc., hence they want, but don't want, sex... institutionalized guilt. This is a major "root" issue. And this isn't something you can raise around - it's media, religion, culture, friends... it's social ostracization if you defect. Expressing wants is great, but is wanting tangible? Then we can talk about women wanting to be attractive (who doesn't), but is that want something that encourages society to objectify women? They also want to be appreciated, and sex (especially at a young age) is validation. Working towards that seems counter productive?(*) It the valuation side that matters in this case, so do we train "men" to value other things, or does that go against them just expressing what they want? As for responsibility, maybe women should take responsibility for getting drunk and leading men on...? Perhaps you didn't mean that kind of responsibility, but the kind where the partner is suppose to know their state and responsibly not take part? Being responsible is just too open to be an applies solution.

    It's a horribly loaded situation and there are no easy answers (or changes). Even the goal isn't clear. I'd define it in terms of entirely changing our mating patterns: until participants reach a mutually accepted strategy that doesn't involve play-acting male predators as a mating strategy. Almost all of our mating behaviour revolves around it, even the soft stuff (who asks who, play hard to get, who pays for who, etc). It's slowly happening (even this outcry against rape culture is just part of the transition). As Lateralus has said, it's the best time in history, but it is partly because of the outcry and drive to change.

    (*) The response to this would is almost always that they should respect themselves too, which is the crux of the problem - a socially defined version of how they should "respect" themselves. "Be themselves" is a great thing to say, but terribly simplistic. None of us developed our attitudes, preferences and so forth in a bubble. And we didn't pick them when we reached maturity either.

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