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  1. #131
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Whenever people talk about 'rape culture', they inevitably group considerably less harmful acts of (arguably) sexism as part of a 'rape culture'. Made a rape joke? You're perpetrating rape culture. Cat called a strange woman? You're perpetrating culture. Recommended a woman not to walk semi naked on a dark alley in order to minimize the chances of getting raped? Fucking misogynist, how dare you imply it's the victim's fault? Stop perpretating that damn rape culture.

    Basically, in an attempt to shift the blame from the victim (which is a noble goal), the blame is shifted to the SOCIETY, rather than the rapist.

    The rapist is essentially a person corrupted by the patriarchy & its rape culture, who would have otherwise abstained from raping had he acknowledged how unethical his behavior is.
    Rape is rape. Rape culture refers to all the behaviors, attitudes, and assumptions, large and small, that lead men to think they can get away with it, and perhaps even that they are entitled to it. Let's turn the last quoted sentence above around. Instead of seeing rapists as men who are corrupted by the patriarchy, let's view them as men who are inclined to violence, aggression, and power trips, and live in a society that does not call them on these tendencies before they get to the point of attempting rape.

    Of course rape culture affects women, too, causing them sometimes to think they have to put up with more from men than they should. I have been accused of "blaming the victims" before, and not just for suggesting women consider the risks of where they go and what they do, but for suggesting simply that they develop a more assertive attitude, and make their wishes and limits plain to men rather than worrying about being polite or accomodating. Male entitlement is a large part of rape culture, and one that far too many women still buy into, or at least tolerate.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #132
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Rape is rape. Rape culture refers to all the behaviors, attitudes, and assumptions, large and small, that lead men to think they can get away with it, and perhaps even that they are entitled to it. Let's turn the last quoted sentence above around. Instead of seeing rapists as men who are corrupted by the patriarchy, let's view them as men who are inclined to violence, aggression, and power trips, and live in a society that does not call them on these tendencies before they get to the point of attempting rape.

    Of course rape culture affects women, too, causing them sometimes to think they have to put up with more from men than they should. I have been accused of "blaming the victims" before, and not just for suggesting women consider the risks of where they go and what they do, but for suggesting simply that they develop a more assertive attitude, and make their wishes and limits plain to men rather than worrying about being polite or accomodating. Male entitlement is a large part of rape culture, and one that far too many women still buy into, or at least tolerate.
    That's actually quite reasonable.

  3. #133
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Thanks @Coriolis. Very clearly stated.

  4. #134
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I question this. From what source do you think it's common? Given that most rapes aren't reported, and a significant number don't get prosecuted (and then even when they do sometimes the accused isn't found guilty when s/he is), it stands to reason that if you want to get someone to be thought of as a rapist you'll likely not be successful. It would be a terribly ineffective way to get revenge on someone, not to mention terrible in general. So whoever is making these accusations I would believe the vast majority of the time.
    "Common" like "posting nudes for revenge common". It's still a small minority, and the point is that it isn't a rape case. I'm talking about telling the family so the guy gets beat up by the brother, or the friends hate him, or whatever. Anyway, if this is clouding things, use "lying about birth control" or "lying about being pregnant" instead. Also, this has little to do with the thread, I was just not so sure that the expansion of things in Cafe's post applied to the issue in the thread.

    You should be at least aware of the (infrequent) times false accusations have destroyed lives. There are relatively high profile cases. I'm not sure I can beat the mental footwork you used here to avoid dissonance.

    I certainly don't, and this should be obvious.
    It is not obvious and I still doubt it. Is this a mistype:

    In fact, the culture of victim blaming actually implies that the tendency to rape is innate in men.
    Because you seem to have no problem implying all the time even while dismissing it (see also your cave man analogy, etc). You put forth the idea in all sorts of ways while saying you don't believe that it is true - so even with you saying it directly, I'm not so sure.

  5. #135
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    "Common" like "posting nudes for revenge common". It's still a small minority, and the point is that it isn't a rape case. I'm talking about telling the family so the guy gets beat up by the brother, or the friends hate him, or whatever. Anyway, if this is clouding things, use "lying about birth control" or "lying about being pregnant" instead. Also, this has little to do with the thread, I was just not so sure that the expansion of things in Cafe's post applied to the issue in the thread.

    You should be at least aware of the (infrequent) times false accusations have destroyed lives. There are relatively high profile cases. I'm not sure I can beat the mental footwork you used here to avoid dissonance.
    Sure, and those can be very damaging if the person in question is falsely convicted or loses his/her job or something. So a solution to the problem isn't to just throw out the justice system. But the way things are is so out of balance, being so fearful of injustice for the accused that we ignore justice for the victim (which is what commonly happens, especially on college campuses) is not a viable option. I didn't know this, but there are people who study how to investigate rape cases specifically, such as looking for psychological signs of trauma in victims who could determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the person in question is not lying; sadly these people are few, and we need to train police officers and school officials in these issues so it doesn't devolve into 'well we don't know what happened because we weren't there and alcohol wasn't involved'. And many college campuses still don't have it in their policy that if a person is sufficiently drunk they can't give consent.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It is not obvious and I still doubt it. Is this a mistype:



    Because you seem to have no problem implying all the time even while dismissing it (see also your cave man analogy, etc). You put forth the idea in all sorts of ways while saying you don't believe that it is true - so even with you saying it directly, I'm not so sure.
    No see, if it were innate that would imply that every man is a potential rapist in a literal and controversial sense, which has been what people have accused me of saying and which I have denied. I think a lot of people do believe this, with the example I gave. But I don't and think that this kind of thinking ironically perpetuates rape culture. To fight it we need to not see every man as a potential rapist, just existing in a culture which indoctrinates certain problematic attitudes. I said a guy could be a rapist and not think of himself as one and otherwise be a kind of decent guy, because he accepts these attitudes, the point of which is for the general population to critically examine their own behavior. And I support a person's right to interact with someone s/he doesn't yet trust as though there is the possibility of rape. But that is quite different from believing that the tendency to rape is innate.

  6. #136
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Rape culture is "nothing" being the most frequent answer to a question about what people have been formally taught about rape.

    Rape culture is boys under 10 years old knowing how to rape
    Aren't these contradictive?
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  7. #137
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Aren't these contradictive?
    Not really. A person can rape without knowing it is rape.

    Edit: That's one reason recent studies of undetected rapists didn't use the word "rape", but other phrases such as "forced intercourse".

  8. #138
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Not really. A person can rape without knowing it is rape.

    Edit: That's one reason recent studies of undetected rapists didn't use the word "rape", but other phrases such as "forced intercourse".
    A person can know how to rape without knowing it's rape, but a person will know how to rape if you teach them what rape is.

    The person who wrote that article seems confused about her end goal. She's machine-gunning things that sound good without respect for her overall message.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  9. #139
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    A person can know how to rape without knowing it's rape, but a person will know how to rape if you teach them what rape is.

    The person who wrote that article seems confused about her end goal. She's machine-gunning things that sound good without respect for her overall message.
    I don't think educating someone about rape has any impact on whether they choose or want to do it.

  10. #140
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Sure, and those can be very damaging if the person in question is falsely convicted or loses his/her job or something.
    Or friends hear it, or family, or educators, or employers. Rumor is rumor. It doesn't need to be convicted or even validated. I hope you are not under the impression that most people would just shrug something like that off. Normal society universally condemns it. There are areas where things are bad, absolutely, but it isn't society at large that accepts it. Even the suggestion of it has serious implications.

    Again, there are high profile cases that showcase this.

    So a solution to the problem isn't to just throw out the justice system.
    I disagree with your approach, yes, because I don't believe the law system can operate the way you say. It's fine in clear cut cases, but the majority are not all that clear and a good many are very unclear.

    I agree that all claims need to be taken seriously and validated. They are too often dismissed. Yet you are asking for someone to judge another's persons ability to consent, while at the same time perhaps being unable to consent themselves. It's a bunch of cultures (drinking, partying, female purity/guilt etc.) in addition to rape culture (in the subset you are referring to here, not universally). Innocent until guilty is a principle that should not be changed, and evidence of lack of consent is very difficult to achieve, making it a difficult crime to deal with.

    None of this is really addressing rape culture. The central problem is that it is accepted by virtue of being unable to identify what is incorrect behavior. Most people don't want to do the wrong (socially unaccepted) thing, but are confused as to what that is. This escalates as good people doing the wrong things are protected, creating walls of silence, institutional support, etc. This assumed "okness" of behavior is the issue and perpetuates the behaviors we are talking about.

    The question is how you deal with it. Law won't fix it and to use it like that turns it into a weapon. Of course, it should be used to the full extent that it can be, without adjusting the core principles (including procedural things, like presentation of evidence, etc.)

    But that is quite different from believing that the tendency to rape is innate.
    I can accept that, but I admit your posts seem to imply otherwise. I'm not even against arguing that it is the case, fwiw, and have no strong opinion on if it is or not. There are serious issues about presuming an innate norm like that however... but that doesn't make it true or false. Its just two very different arguments and it seemed like we were shifting in and out of them.

    I think we agree in principle anyway, since we both have strong issues with culture and see it as the driving force.


    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I didn't know this, but there are people who study how to investigate rape cases specifically, such as looking for psychological signs of trauma in victims who could determine beyond a reasonable doubt that the person in question is not lying;
    Absolutely not. Profiling like that is dangerous, ineffective and unethical. It doesn't exist anywhere.

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