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  1. #121
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    As I said before, the purpose of rape culture is to shame/bully people into becoming ideological zealots. If you're not a zealot when it comes to rape, then you're a supporter of rape culture (ie. a rapist).
    Glad that was made clear: as YOU'VE said. Given that the idea of rape culture also highlights the issue of insidious forms of ignoring the problem, or promoting the culture, it really isn't all about bullying or shaming (such colourful word choices you have there, interesting). If you're going to draw a spectrum, draw it more accurately. It's about creating awareness. And, does not necessarily have to be through bullying and shaming. Raising our sons* to be aware of how they treat women, how their actions, inactions and/or reactions, not only towards women, but towards themselves, contribute to the culture, or breaks down the culture, isn't (shouldn't) be done through shaming or bullying. There are other modes of teaching them to not contribute to the culture.

    * and daughters

    To add: on the flip side of the spectrum, if you're a supporter of rape culture, that doesn't necessarily make you a rapist, how ridiculous (I don't know if you're commenting on this to @greenfairy), but an apologist.

    The concept of rape culture is divisive.
    Just because you put it in those divisive terms, does not make it so.

  2. #122
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Could you possibly actually consider the personal impact of the comments you make and the ideas you promote?

    You can continue to frame this as an issue of "broader culture" and wanting to fix some broad social issues; but your words are directed at individual people, not at concepts. When you call a man a potential rapist, you are not just calling "men" potential rapists, you are actually saying each individual man -- each specific man on this forum -- is a potential rapist. You are saying Highlander is a potential rapist. And Elfboy. And Udog. And Seymour. And Mole. And all the other men on this forum. You are calling your father a potential rapist. Why? Because they were born with a penis.

    Do you actually see individual people when you look at society or just some broad, faceless miasma of social currents without a unique connection to specific individuals? You seem to want to accept the impact of your argument and words on a very broad scale while remaning insensitive to the impact of your judgments and arguments on real, specific, individual human beings.
    Well like I say, it doesn't literally mean that every man is a potential rapist. It means that every man with a penis and the ability to use it has the ability to be a rapist, yes. Whether that individual man chooses to be one is different. And from my point of view I recognize that when I interact with people. I don't get into risky situations with men I don't yet trust, because I know there is the possibility that they could rape me. That's just smart. It doesn't matter who it is.

    That's my opinion, and I have said it is not attacking anyone personally. Just how I conduct myself. And all men probably have at least one problematic unconscious assumption that they should look at, and all men benefit from living in a sexist society (and are harmed by it). That's a fact.

    I can clarify this all day, and some people are going to take it as a personal attack no matter what. I can't control that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qrious View Post
    To add: on the flip side of the spectrum, if you're a supporter of rape culture, that doesn't necessarily make you a rapist, how ridiculous (I don't know if you're commenting on this to @greenfairy), but an apologist.
    No I agree, that would be ridiculous.

  3. #123
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well like I say, it doesn't literally mean that every man is a potential rapist. It means that every man with a penis and the ability to use it has the ability to be a rapist, yes. Whether that individual man chooses to be one is different.
    Do you understand that when you call "men" potential rapists, that means all of those specific men are necessarily potential rapists?

    I'm not sure how to make that clearer. How would you feel if someone called all women "potential whores" and that our culture is dominated by a whore mentality and argued the point that we are all potential whores and that we need to change our potential whorish ways? And the whole dialogue was framed as whorishness?

    I think one large issue when discussing topics is conceptually is that, like a flimsy boat that is not moored properly to the pier, gusts of wind and water currents can slowly push and drift that boat so that it is no longer moored to tangible, anchored land. It personally helps me to look at the very specific results of my words and ideas and make sure they remain anchored to something specific and tangible. You are trying to implement social change not for men and women as a collective but for all the specific men and women that comprise that collective individually, so it's important to consider how you engage specific individuals and whether your words describe their actual reality.

    And from my point of view I recognize that when I interact with people. I don't get into risky situations with men I don't yet trust, because I know there is the possibility that they could rape me. That's just smart. It doesn't matter who it is.
    I am vigilant and always aware of the potential dangers in a situation, yet at the same time I'm not constantly framing my boss and the guy next cube over and my sons and whoever else as rapists waiting to happen, not to the degree that this conversation is taking. It reminds me of men who insist on viewing all women as golddiggers. I don't see how it's conducive to productive conversation or accomplishes anything.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #124
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you understand that when you call "men" potential rapists, that means all of those specific men are necessarily potential rapists?

    I'm not sure how to make that clearer. How would you feel if someone called all women "potential whores" and that our culture is dominated by a whore mentality and argued the point that we are all potential whores and that we need to change our potential whorish ways? And the whole dialogue was framed as whorishness?
    Um, well I don't think being a whore is bad, so if it were I would say that was fine. Being a "potential rapist" is how you, if you have the ability, are being perceived by people who are potential rape victims. That is not a bad thing. It means you have to earn someone's trust. Nothing more, nothing less. People's safety is more important than how individual men are perceived, and that's just a fact. Earning a person's trust is a sign of respect. I'm not going to naively try to believe that a person I don't yet know has no possibility of raping me, just because he seems nice or buys me a drink or I liked kissing him or he makes me feel guilty about not trusting him, or anything else. That's how women do get raped. I trust my instincts and whether I feel comfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I am vigilant and always aware of the potential dangers in a situation, yet at the same time I'm not constantly framing my boss and the guy next cube over and my sons and whoever else as rapists waiting to happen, not to the degree that this conversation is taking. It reminds me of men who insist on viewing all women as golddiggers. I don't see how it's conducive to productive conversation or accomplishes anything.
    I think if it has gotten to any place extreme and disconnected from reality, that's based on a misunderstanding. However, I think challenging men to see themselves as potential rapists (in the weakest sense, the fact that they are capable of it, and in the sense that they are being perceived that way rightly so) can be useful to provoke introspection and critical thinking. I challenge men to think about their actions and whether they take the time to earn women's trust. And obviously whether they take no for an answer and whether they wait for full consent.

  5. #125
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I only recently told her all the stories of what everything that happened in this regard while I was between the ages of 16-28.
    So what happened after 28? Did you turn into a pumpkin at midnight?
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  6. #126
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you understand that when you call "men" potential rapists, that means all of those specific men are necessarily potential rapists?

    I'm not sure how to make that clearer. How would you feel if someone called all women "potential whores" and that our culture is dominated by a whore mentality and argued the point that we are all potential whores and that we need to change our potential whorish ways? And the whole dialogue was framed as whorishness?

    I think one large issue when discussing topics is conceptually is that, like a flimsy boat that is not moored properly to the pier, gusts of wind and water currents can slowly push and drift that boat so that it is no longer moored to tangible, anchored land. It personally helps me to look at the very specific results of my words and ideas and make sure they remain anchored to something specific and tangible. You are trying to implement social change not for men and women as a collective but for all the specific men and women that comprise that collective individually, so it's important to consider how you engage specific individuals and whether your words describe their actual reality.



    I am vigilant and always aware of the potential dangers in a situation, yet at the same time I'm not constantly framing my boss and the guy next cube over and my sons and whoever else as rapists waiting to happen, not to the degree that this conversation is taking. It reminds me of men who insist on viewing all women as golddiggers. I don't see how it's conducive to productive conversation or accomplishes anything.
    Well stated and a mature response to this alarmist viewpoint.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  7. #127
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    So what happened after 28? Did you turn into a pumpkin at midnight?
    A) I stopped being in the fertile/desirable group. Iow, I got old, so I got harassed less. It still happens occasionally though.
    B) I actually got to the point where I was relieved to work from home so I didn't have to go outside and deal with this shit anymore.
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  8. #128
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    This is interesting:
    Sexual abuse, physical abuse and neglect are all significantly more prevalent in the backgrounds of rapists than in the backgrounds of non-offending men.
    from this link

    Another quote:
    Researchers discovered that it was possible to gather accurate data from [non-incarcerated rapists] because they did not view themselves as rapists. They shared the very widespread belief that rapists were knife-wielding men in ski masks who attacked strangers; since they did not fit that description, they were not rapists and their behavior was not rape.
    I think this is important because some men who aim to get women drunk and then have sex with them may actually be rapists and not consider themselves to be. And other people may not either, but they are. If your partner is too drunk to say no and assertively resist when you sexually advance on her, you are a rapist. Targeting drunk women also makes you a potential rapist.

  9. #129
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Just last week, my younger daughter got up in the morning to check her facebook. What did she see? A nude pic of her friend's ex-gf. She had broken up with him and he was pissed so he put a photo she had given to him on facebook. Now, it is out there forever. If she wants to run for school board in twenty years, she might hesitate to do so because her kids might end up seeing that picture. The girl is a minor. The guy was not. This guy was my daughter's friend. She thought he was a decent person.
    This in no way invalidates anything you have said, especially about the predatory nature of it all...but I want to point out that "good people" is not a male or female thing. The direct comparison here would be the girl laying false rape claims when the guy broke up with her, a surprisingly common thing that gets spread among friends to hurt the guy. It's only noticeable when police get involved. I would say that society empowers the female's side of things on this topic, if anything.

    Both sexes are excellent at doing stupid things when they are hurt, or just being lousy people (eg: I would use spousal abuse as an example, since many men won't fight back perpetuating one type, while women won't leave perpetuating another type).

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I find it helps me preserve my safety and avoid getting into risky situations with men until they have earned my trust. It's just a good survival strategy. Stop taking this as a personal attack on men's characters.
    I'm with you. I disregard women's comments until they've shown themselves to be intelligent. A handy rule of thumb.

    Sarcasm aside, I do understand where you are coming from. Local heuristics are a valid, if sad, reason for assuming a stereotyped norm. For instance, it's hard to draw the line between racism and a heuristic if you were to say "When I see {race}, I cross the street because I'm scared", when you live in an area where {race} is poor/unlawful/gang-related/desperate. {race} would simply change to a new demographic and thus a different heuristic based on the local social construct. We simply have to deal with what information we have and the model we have of the world.

    The issue is when you see it as an innate trait. Do you?

    If you do, I consider your attitude very harmful. It's the foundation for why men have problems being young kids teachers, why we fight to get custody, why we put up with more spousal abuse... and note that those are the "good" men that suffer. The belief perpetuates the fundamental social construct that men are predators. The central method of breaking rape culture is to show that it isn't acceptable! How can you achieve that if you imply it exists due to some innate trait?

    I know different areas have different sub-cultures, safety, etc. But beware what you actually hold as a belief because it shapes your entire perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    This is interesting: from this link
    I actually found this more insulting, given the first quote's language change.

  10. #130
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The direct comparison here would be the girl laying false rape claims when the guy broke up with her, a surprisingly common thing that gets spread among friends to hurt the guy. It's only noticeable when police get involved. I would say that society empowers the female's side of things on this topic, if anything.
    I question this. From what source do you think it's common? Given that most rapes aren't reported, and a significant number don't get prosecuted (and then even when they do sometimes the accused isn't found guilty when s/he is), it stands to reason that if you want to get someone to be thought of as a rapist you'll likely not be successful. It would be a terribly ineffective way to get revenge on someone, not to mention terrible in general. So whoever is making these accusations I would believe the vast majority of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The issue is when you see it as an innate trait. Do you?

    If you do, I consider your attitude very harmful. It's the foundation for why men have problems being young kids teachers, why we fight to get custody, why we put up with more spousal abuse... and note that those are the "good" men that suffer. The belief perpetuates the fundamental social construct that men are predators. The central method of breaking rape culture is to show that it isn't acceptable! How can you achieve that if you imply it exists due to some innate trait?

    I know different areas have different sub-cultures, safety, etc. But beware what you actually hold as a belief because it shapes your entire perception.
    I certainly don't, and this should be obvious. In fact, the culture of victim blaming actually implies that the tendency to rape is innate in men. 'Women should do all they can to avoid the dangerous men who are all around, just waiting for the smallest opportunity or temptation, like a flash of cleavage, to rape because they can't help themselves.' I think most men are good people with no desire to rape, as the statistics show. It's a few who have messed up ideas and get off on power over other people, and they tend to do it over and over. My concern is with avoiding that small minority. I think these men were shaped partly by their circumstances which were usually abusive, partly by the culture, and they may just lack empathy which may be partly innate in them individually. I don't know. But the fact that the (problematic) response to the prevalence of rape was to create a culture of fear of men shows that it is not innate in all or most men. I think a lot of people assume it is also when they talk about the past, like in paleolithic "cave man" culture as though men went around raping women all the time, because it's "just human nature". People will say this all the time, yet not realize they are at the same time calling all men potential rapists in a quite literal fashion.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I actually found this more insulting, given the first quote's language change.
    I have no idea why you would find this insulting. Please explain.

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