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  1. #111
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @greenfairy
    where do you live and how many men do you know? what you believe "most men" believe does not line up with my experience, like, at all. I don't know anyone who thinks they have the right to a woman's body. many of your opinions in this thread come across as paranoid.
    Well obviously I don't mean it literally. Most of them wouldn't say they believe that, but they would say and do other things which I think would imply that they think that on some level. According to surveys only a very small percentage of men (like 4-8%) are actually rapists, but I think part of rape culture is that attitudes are pervasive which show that people will say one thing and then do something which contradicts that. Like for example I don't think Robin Thicke is a rapist, but Blurred Lines certainly seems to promote rape culture. For another example, any time a man doesn't take no for an answer and is persistent beyond the point where a woman is uncomfortable, as @cafe mentioned, that means the person is not respecting her ownership of her body and essentially implies he believes on some level that he is entitled to it. He believes he can "persuade" her to let him share it whether kissing, touching, viewing nude or sex, when that doesn't really mean consent but often means she just gives in to keep the peace of because she doesn't have enough energy to keep resisting, or for some other reason. Even if she sort of wants to, if she doesn't completely want to he hasn't "persuaded" her into giving full consent, he has bullied her into accepting his claims to her by giving up part of her autonomy.

    Edit: Most opinions which may come across as paranoid are shared by a lot of feminists at the academic level who have studied these concepts sociologically, looked at statistics, and probably experienced sexual assaults themselves or had friends and relatives who have.

    There's nothing paranoid about having people earn your trust. That's not automatically being afraid of men, which I'm not unless I don't like their vibe, or being afraid of intimacy. It just means allowing time to properly assess someone before I evaluate whether I can trust them.

  2. #112
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    Wouldn't it be much easier and clearer to just word it the way you have, instead of all this rhetoric, as seen in the originally posted "article"?
    I think calling it rape culture implicates everyone, and rightly. I'm not going to apologize for offending people and calling all men potential rapists, because everyone needs to realize their level of complicity in a culture which supports rape and promotes attitudes which support rape. Think critically about it. See what attitudes and internalized sexism you have, and get rid of them. I'm not going to pretend I'm perfect; I've believed all sorts of things which have caused me to not be as assertive as I could have been, and not been as selective of men as I could have been. I could have demanded a lot more respect. There is something more almost everyone can do. It's the same as living in a white supremacist society; everyone has some amount of internalized racism, and all white people benefit from a white supremacist power structure whether they know it or not. Societal structures support certain power dynamics and beliefs whether you consciously hold them or not, and knowing you are part of this culture allows you to consciously decide which parts of the culture you participate in and which ones you don't, and to actively fight against it.

    And I really don't care whether it's divisive, because anything which really produces social change is necessarily provocative. You choose whether you divide yourself against other people or whether you stand with them in solidarity, whether you see differences of opinion as cause for conflict or cause for conflict resolution.

  3. #113
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Wow. Really?

    "I'm not going to apologize for offending people and calling all men potential rapists, because everyone needs to realize their level of complicity in a culture which supports rape and promotes attitudes which support rape..."
    coupled with

    " Stop taking this as a personal attack on men's characters."
    Yeah. Being labeled a rapist because of what gender you were born as is of course nothing to be taken personally, just like being labeled as an object because of what gender you were born as is nothing to take personally either.

    And

    "And I really don't care whether it's divisive, because anything which really produces social change is necessarily provocative. You choose whether you divide yourself against other people or whether you stand with them in solidarity, whether you see differences of opinion as cause for conflict or cause for conflict resolution."
    Well, as far as you seem to be concerned, there is no "conflict resolution" unless you are given what you want. IOW, you're making demands of the culture and will not stop until you win. So there is no solidarity possible. Be honest about that... and accept that it means you're necessarily being "divisive" in pursuit of your goal to obliterate any opposition, at which point there will no longer be any division possible since only one side will remain. Embrace the division you're causing, if you believe in your cause that firmly.

    This is your decision to make, of course; and if this is the hill you're willing to die on, so be it; but I don't think you're going to get very far. Certainly one needs to stand firm if social change is necessary, but there's a cost to that, as well as a continual need for self-scrutiny to see if there are any areas in which you are being unreasonable and opppresive yourself.

    I think there are things that desperately need to change in the culture (and some posters here have described anecdotes that have involved those bad attitudes), but your attitude is only compounding the problems.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #114
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Whenever people talk about 'rape culture', they inevitably group considerably less harmful acts of (arguably) sexism as part of a 'rape culture'. Made a rape joke? You're perpetrating rape culture. Cat called a strange woman? You're perpetrating culture. Recommended a woman not to walk semi naked on a dark alley in order to minimize the chances of getting raped? Fucking misogynist, how dare you imply it's the victim's fault? Stop perpretating that damn rape culture.

    Basically, in an attempt to shift the blame from the victim (which is a noble goal), the blame is shifted to the SOCIETY, rather than the rapist.

    The rapist is essentially a person corrupted by the patriarchy & its rape culture, who would have otherwise abstained from raping had he acknowledged how unethical his behavior is.

    As if rapists just need to realize that their behavior is harmful for them not to do it.

    Since the society has a large part of the guilt, the rapist has his actions partially justified, as the society has failed to enlighten the rapist with feminist wisdom. Society enabled that behavior.

    Which can easily work as a cop-out. Assuming the concept of rape culture is valid, the old 'she was asking for it' can smoothly be replaced with 'society made me that way'.

    There's a basic criminal law principle stating that less culpability translates into lighter sentences.

    Being coherent, it would be reasonable to give lighter sentences to rapists, since his behavior could have been avoided had the society taught him that 'it's not the victim's fault'; 'her body, her rules'.

    Food for thought. Don't hate.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think calling it rape culture implicates everyone, and rightly. I'm not going to apologize for offending people and calling all men potential rapists, because everyone needs to realize their level of complicity in a culture which supports rape and promotes attitudes which support rape. Think critically about it. See what attitudes and internalized sexism you have, and get rid of them. I'm not going to pretend I'm perfect; I've believed all sorts of things which have caused me to not be as assertive as I could have been, and not been as selective of men as I could have been. I could have demanded a lot more respect. There is something more almost everyone can do. It's the same as living in a white supremacist society; everyone has some amount of internalized racism, and all white people benefit from a white supremacist power structure whether they know it or not. Societal structures support certain power dynamics and beliefs whether you consciously hold them or not, and knowing you are part of this culture allows you to consciously decide which parts of the culture you participate in and which ones you don't, and to actively fight against it.
    I can see what you are saying. You're probably right. I would like you to realize though, that culture is tradition, and people like tradition. Tradition keeps us comfortable, keeps things familiar. Oftentimes the more familiar is preferred to the terrifying unknown. So before you set about changing culture, or even seeing culture itself as being a villain, see its merits and purpose. This would also help to see why it's so hard to change culture.

    And I really don't care whether it's divisive, because anything which really produces social change is necessarily provocative. You choose whether you divide yourself against other people or whether you stand with them in solidarity, whether you see differences of opinion as cause for conflict or cause for conflict resolution.
    Alienating those who you want to listen to you may not be effective. I think the end goal would be to reach men. Especially the men who you don't like.

  6. #116
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    At the same time, in order for tradition and cultural mentality to change, it needs to recognise that there is something inherently wrong with the way they view (insert issue).

    And nobody like to hear that their ingrained habits and natural way of looking at things isn't exactly harmless or can even contribute to something as extreme and widely reviled as rape.

    Asking the question and ruffling the feathers is step one, imho. After that, we can look together at the causes, the options and hopefully, the solutions.

    I'll say it again - we have a culture of objectification and this issue is just one of the symptoms. The way our culture handles, dominates and enslaves other species alone is mortifying and gruesome. It's just so normal to us that few people bat an eye. And even if they are aware of it - it's not like they can change the way the world works. That is, on their own. And yes, you'll get extremist power tripping people who will use these ruffled feathers for their own gain. It doesn't mean the actual call for change is invalid though - however hard it might be to stomach for our society.
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  7. #117
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    I can see what you are saying. You're probably right. I would like you to realize though, that culture is tradition, and people like tradition. Tradition keeps us comfortable, keeps things familiar. Oftentimes the more familiar is preferred to the terrifying unknown. So before you set about changing culture, or even seeing culture itself as being a villain, see its merits and purpose. This would also help to see why it's so hard to change culture.

    Alienating those who you want to listen to you may not be effective. I think the end goal would be to reach men. Especially the men who you don't like.
    See, I don't view having a controversial opinion as automatically alienating. I don't think I have completely alienated you. I respect your right to your opinion, and you seem to be respecting mine. We have come to a greater agreement than we had before. And I don't see alienation as being insurmountable and permanent. I am not responsible for how my words are taken and the reactions of other people, but I am responsible for making my words as clear, respectful, and friendly to conflict resolution as possible. I believe I have spoken reasonably in this thread and I stand by my opinions. I also wish to emphasize that I am respectful of all persons in this dialogue and am not ascribing blame or judgment, just describing social dynamics and their causes and effects as I see them.

  8. #118
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Whenever people talk about 'rape culture', they inevitably group considerably less harmful acts of (arguably) sexism as part of a 'rape culture'. Made a rape joke? You're perpetrating rape culture. Cat called a strange woman? You're perpetrating culture. Recommended a woman not to walk semi naked on a dark alley in order to minimize the chances of getting raped? Fucking misogynist, how dare you imply it's the victim's fault? Stop perpretating that damn rape culture.
    I personally don't believe this is unreasonable, though I can see how some may feel it is extreme or hateful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Basically, in an attempt to shift the blame from the victim (which is a noble goal), the blame is shifted to the SOCIETY, rather than the rapist.
    This is a logical misstep. You are assuming a false dichotomy- either we blame the rapist or the society which supports him. There is room for holding both accountable, which is what most people of my persuasion would like to do. I don't know anyone who really believes that individuals are wholly constructed from society, that society has shaped their morals to the degree that they are no longer morally responsible. However most people would agree that societies influence individuals to varying degrees.

    I find it more socially palatable and productive to speak of social power dynamics than to ascribe blame to individuals because I believe it addresses the problems themselves and the causes of crime rather than the symptoms; however individuals act and those actions have consequences, and those individuals should certainly be held accountable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Food for thought. Don't hate.
    Not hating. Just being passionate.

  9. #119
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    @Jennifer, the points you raise are good. I accept that I will alienate some, but as I have said I don't see this as a permanent situation. I don't know what you mean by demanding something and getting what I want; what I demand is for people to respect other people's autonomy over their own bodies. This is an idealistic goal and I accept I won't persuade everyone to change behavior and attitudes which could be seen as contradicting this goal. I won't persuade everyone to agree with me, and that's fine. Differences in opinion are actually productive so long as we engage in rational and respectful dialogue.

    As far as personal attacks go, I can see how it may appear that I am attacking people of the male gender, and I don't mean that all men are literally potential rapists. But I think it is important to acknowledge that being born or identified as a certain gender affects your experience of and participation in societal power dynamics, just as being born a certain race does. People bear responsibility to examine this. I don't find personal attacks productive, but I challenge people to see the effects of their actions and beliefs. I'm not 100% free of internalized racism, and I don't think very many men (or women) are 100% free from internalized sexism. There are many choices people could make which do more to protect themselves and women, and ways in which they could actively fight oppressive power dynamics. Pointing this out is far from a personal attack. It would better be called a personal challenge.

  10. #120
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Could you possibly actually consider the personal impact of the comments you make and the ideas you promote?

    You can continue to frame this as an issue of "broader culture" and wanting to fix some broad social issues; but your words are directed at individual people, not at concepts. When you call a man a potential rapist, you are not just calling "men" potential rapists, you are actually saying each individual man -- each specific man on this forum -- is a potential rapist. You are saying Highlander is a potential rapist. And Elfboy. And Udog. And Seymour. And Mole. And all the other men on this forum. You are calling your father a potential rapist. Why? Because they were born with a penis.

    Do you actually see individual people when you look at society or just some broad, faceless miasma of social currents without a unique connection to specific individuals? You seem to want to accept the impact of your argument and words on a very broad scale while remaning insensitive to the impact of your judgments and arguments on real, specific, individual human beings.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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