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  1. #101
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I have two daughters. They are 19 and nearly 21. I don't know how to protect them. I sent my older daughter to orientation at her university because I thought she would be safe. She agreed to make out with a guy just to see what it was like. He didn't want to stop when she did. She had to physically push him off of her to get him to stop. She came home pretty shaken. And I'm left wondering, what if she was a smaller girl? What if it had been her younger sister, who is much smaller? So you can be certain my younger daughter is not going to the overnight orientation at the university.

    My younger daughter dated a guy for two weeks. Early on in the relationship she told him that it made her really uncomfortable to have someone's arm across her shoulders. He could not keep is arm off of her shoulders. He couldn't understand why she broke up with him. He kept trying to negotiate to stay in the relationship. He grabbed her in the hallway at school to try to get her to talk to him. I guess her reaction was finally angry enough that he got the point because after that he left her mostly alone. But her simple no was never enough to be listened to.
    My daughter's 14, and she's had a similar experience. She isn't dating yet, but she's had a few school romances. One of the boys kept putting his hand on her leg. She told him right away that it made her uncomfortable and to please stop. He just kept putting it higher and higher. "What about now? Are you uncomfortable now?" Like it was a big joke. She kept telling him to stop, he kept on pushing. Eventually she broke up with him over it, and his reply was "you must just be on your period."

    I know that boys are under a lot of pressure to be sexually aggressive, too, and that's part of the problem. I'm sure there are plenty of boys who have been uncomfortable with girls' attention but have not been able to speak up because boys are supposed to be horndogs and receptive to anything a girl does. This affects everyone.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well I don't want to circumvent the judicial process as I've said before, but you can go on believing I do if that's what you want to do. I can't stop you. And I'm not a misandrist, but you can go on believing I am if that makes you feel good. But to clarify, I don't call most men rapists, just that most men have attitudes which are part of rape culture. It's on a continuum. Those who totally don't believe they own women's bodies tend to be ethical people and those who totally do believe they have the right to use women's bodies for their own personal reasons tend to be rapists or potential rapists. Most men fall somewhere in the middle.
    You said you want to switch from innocent-until-proven-guilty to guilty-until-proven-innocent. That is circumventing the justice system because it is logically impossible to prove you did not rape someone.

    As I said before, the purpose of rape culture is to shame/bully people into becoming ideological zealots. If you're not a zealot when it comes to rape, then you're a supporter of rape culture (ie. a rapist).

    The concept of rape culture is divisive.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #103
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If you non-rapist dudes who hate the very idea of rape have some ideas how to effectively stop this shit, I would be on your bandwagon with both feet. Honestly, we're just sick, sick, sick of this stuff. So tired of being afraid all the time. So tired of being called either prudes or whores. So tired of having friends and loved ones tell us about this happening to them and not knowing how to help them or what to say. We want it to stop. We're trying to stop it. Maybe not very well, but that is not on purpose. Believe me, we want effective more than we want whatever you're accusing us of. If we hurt your feelings, we're sorry. But, myself, I find it hard to get real broken up about it because as much as it sucks, your risk of being raped is so much smaller than that of my daughters and myself, my mom. You are like the cow or chicken telling the pig that everyone has to make a sacrifice in order for there to be breakfast. Your stakes are just lower.
    Males are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women.

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

    I find your view on this offensive, not because I don't think rape is an important issue (it is important). It's because you elevate rape to being the most important issue and you must diminish the importance other problems to do so. Men are more likely than women to be victims of all violent crimes, except rape (if you exclude prison rape, if you include prison rape, men might outnumber women there, as well). Your perspective is so self-centered. You're so sure that women, singularly, are the ones who need to be protected. You go so far as to dismiss the dangers males face in your post.

    Why are you afraid all the time? You, your daughters, and your friends less likely to be rape victims than at any time in human history. I'm statistically more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than you, but I'm not living in fear all the time. Maybe believing there is a Rape Culture is why you're so afraid.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #104
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As humans, we have the ability to choose not to act on our impulses or baser instincts, in the interests of some greater good, for ourselves or others or both. Some of us make more of an effort to do this than others.
    Is it productive to view all males as potential rapists?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You said you want to switch from innocent-until-proven-guilty to guilty-until-proven-innocent. That is circumventing the justice system because it is logically impossible to prove you did not rape someone.

    As I said before, the purpose of rape culture is to shame/bully people into becoming ideological zealots. If you're not a zealot when it comes to rape, then you're a supporter of rape culture (ie. a rapist).

    The concept of rape culture is divisive.
    You're taking everything way too literally and to uncalled for extremes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Is it productive to view all males as potential rapists?
    I find it helps me preserve my safety and avoid getting into risky situations with men until they have earned my trust. It's just a good survival strategy. Stop taking this as a personal attack on men's characters.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Males are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women.

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

    I find your view on this offensive, not because I don't think rape is an important issue (it is important). It's because you elevate rape to being the most important issue and you must diminish the importance other problems to do so. Men are more likely than women to be victims of all violent crimes, except rape (if you exclude prison rape, if you include prison rape, men might outnumber women there, as well). Your perspective is so self-centered. You're so sure that women, singularly, are the ones who need to be protected. You go so far as to dismiss the dangers males face in your post.

    Why are you afraid all the time? You, your daughters, and your friends less likely to be rape victims than at any time in human history. I'm statistically more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than you, but I'm not living in fear all the time. Maybe believing there is a Rape Culture is why you're so afraid.
    Because every day as a woman between 16-28 years of age, i was confronted with men not taking for an answer an average of three times a day if i dared to step outside. I was never raped but it makes not living in non stop anxiety and caution mighty hard. And im a woman who loves men and is confortsble with them in most situations but having groups of men who are bored and hunting for something or someone to do and being very persistent about it was...normal and scary at the same time.

    I was kissed randomly on the mouth by 5 strangers in the street. I cannot recall the amount of times i was inappropriately touched and physically stopped as i tried to move away and go about my day. It took me an average of half an hour longer to get home when walking home after a certain hour to bypass and answer the same questions every day( do you have a boyfriend, wht is your name, can i have your number, where do you live and can we hook up/have sex + noooo, dont go!!!!) from those groups. And ive been followed home more than once and have had men waiting in the street they knew me to live in more han once.


    Maybe statistically you are at greater risk for violent crimes. I hwever lived every day with the knowledge that if I stepped outside, men would and could invade my space and ignore my 'no' on precursors that put me at risk.

    I tell ya. It is hard not to live in fear. And the worst part is - you cannot talk about it coz you get told youre just showing off and like the attention. If it happens, it is your fault and you secretly enjoy it.

    Im not going to deny that it is an ego boost especially in the beginning but the willful invasion of space and the deaf ear to a no and demand on your time for fear you migh escalate the situation is exhausting and not worth it.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Because every day as a woman between 16-28 years of age, i was confronted with men not taking for an answer an average of three times a day if i dared to step outside. I was never raped but it makes not living in non stop anxiety and caution mighty hard. And im a woman who loves men and is confortsble with them in most situations but having groups of men who are bored and hunting for something or someone to do and being very persistent about it was...normal and scary at the same time.

    I was kissed randomly on the mouth by 5 strangers in the street. I cannot recall the amount of times i was inappropriately touched and physically stopped as i tried to move away and go about my day. It took me an average of half an hour longer to get home when walking home after a certain hour to bypass and answer the same questions every day( do you have a boyfriend, wht is your name, can i have your number, where do you live and can we hook up/have sex + noooo, dont go!!!!) from those groups. And ive been followed home more than once and have had men waiting in the street they knew me to live in more han once.


    Maybe statistically you are at greater risk for violent crimes. I hwever lived every day with the knowledge that if I stepped outside, men would and could invade my space and ignore my 'no' on precursors that put me at risk.

    I tell ya. It is hard not to live in fear. And the worst part is - you cannot talk about it coz you get told youre just showing off and like the attention. If it happens, it is your fault and you secretly enjoy it.

    Im not going to deny that it is an ego boost especially in the beginning but the willful invasion of space and the deaf ear to a no and demand on your time for fear you migh escalate the situation is exhausting and not worth it.
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  8. #108
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    You know, I contemplated things like that but my mom did say something about that: that's a weapon they can use against you as you're far less likely to want to harm someone than they are if the situation warrants you using it. She suggested instead the kind of old fashioned sugar cubes that are razor sharp and leave the most painful, nasty and permanent skin welts when used to scratch someone's face. Meanwhile, if you drop it, it breaks - eliminating the threat of them using it against you.

    I wish I could tell you that these kind of talks with my mom were a one-time deal. They weren't. Neither was her forcing the principal of my school to have a martial arts program after school once I turned 13 and grew boobs. I only recently told her all the stories of what everything that happened in this regard while I was between the ages of 16-28. And she is eternally grateful I didn't inform her of them at the time as she was neurotic enough about my safety already at the time.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  9. #109
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @greenfairy
    where do you live and how many men do you know? what you believe "most men" believe does not line up with my experience, like, at all. I don't know anyone who thinks they have the right to a woman's body. many of your opinions in this thread come across as paranoid.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    As I said before, the purpose of rape culture is to shame/bully people into becoming ideological zealots. If you're not a zealot when it comes to rape, then you're a supporter of rape culture (ie. a rapist).
    I don't think anyone has said or even implied that being a supporter of rape culture meant said person was a rapist (though I agree it's more than a bit offensive)

    The concept of rape culture is divisive.
    definitely
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