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View Poll Results: Has the environmental movement become a religion?

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  • Yes

    13 37.14%
  • No

    16 45.71%
  • Other (explain)

    6 17.14%
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  1. #51
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I don't see how the environment is being diefied.
    In general, these denitions do get very silly, which is why the debate has even gotten to this point in the first place...

    I think environmental issues are too broad, too real, and too important to be attributed to a "cult" or even a supposed "special interest group".

    I mean, why not call physicians and medical workers abunch of zealots? Look at how much they obsess over this idea of human health! It's crazy! They're always talking about it, with such smug confidence, and they make it sound soooo important. One of them actually called me a fool for drinking nail polish remover. Where do they get the nerve?!

    In concept, I appreciate those of you that said there are real environmental concerns, and that you are only bothered by a fanatical sub-division of environmentalists. But I'm honestly not convinced. As I look at this thread, I'm still getting the impression that environmentalism is being dangersouly marginalized.

    And lastly... I think many of the Libertarian ideas about sociology and economics are quasi-mystical. I mean... the invisible hand?
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  2. #52
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And Christians try to convert people before they die and spend an eternity in hell. I see a strong parallel. To assume that we're permanently ruining the planet is running on faith, belief without evidence.

    You're a bit out of touch with the scientific community, aren't you?
    And you never did clarify that inexplicable question you asked sassafrassquatch.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You're a bit out of touch with the scientific community, aren't you?
    Permanently ruining the planet is a very strong claim. When I think of 'permanently ruining the planet', I think of a run-away greenhouse effect, like on Venus. I really don't see how anything less would be permanent.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't see how the environment is being diefied.
    In general, these denitions do get very silly, which is why the debate has even gotten to this point in the first place...

    I think environmental issues are too broad, too real, and too important to be attributed to a "cult" or even a supposed "special interest group".

    I mean, why not call physicians and medical workers abunch of zealots? Look at how much they obsess over this idea of human health! It's crazy! They're always talking about it, with such smug confidence, and they make it sound soooo important. One of them actually called me a fool for drinking nail polish remover. Where do they get the nerve?!

    In concept, I appreciate those of you that said there are real environmental concerns, and that you are only bothered by a fanatical sub-division of environmentalists. But I'm honestly not convinced. As I look at this thread, I'm still getting the impression that environmentalism is being dangersouly marginalized.

    And lastly... I think many of the Libertarian ideas about sociology and economics are quasi-mystical. I mean... the invisible hand?
    The invisible hand is a nickname for a demonstrable process. That is a lot different than, say, Deep Ecology.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The fringes of libertarianism are being compared to the fringes of environmentalism, I would guess on the basis of both being fringes.

    I think the point was that people invest all sorts of reasonable causes and viewpoints with religious zeal, and the fringe doesn't have to reflect badly on the reasonable cause or viewpoint.
    Yes, this was the point.

    Permanently ruining the planet is a very strong claim. When I think of 'permanently ruining the planet', I think of a run-away greenhouse effect, like on Venus. I really don't see how anything less would be permanent.
    Most of the gases that people add that would be expected to cause a greenhouse effect last quite a long time in the atmosphere, which does mean the planet would get warmed up quite a bit. In addition, species extinction can't be reversed, deforestation of rainforest areas takes a long time to fix, Acid mine drainage, soil erosion, and other assorted similar resource issues don't reverse quickly as well. It may or may not be permanent damage, but it is damage that lasts quite a long time.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Most of the gases that people add that would be expected to cause a greenhouse effect last quite a long time in the atmosphere, which does mean the planet would get warmed up quite a bit. In addition, species extinction can't be reversed, deforestation of rainforest areas takes a long time to fix, Acid mine drainage, soil erosion, and other assorted similar resource issues don't reverse quickly as well. It may or may not be permanent damage, but it is damage that lasts quite a long time.
    See, this is what really annoys me about this issue. You use phrases like 'quite a long time', which have no meaning. In science, when people use phrases like 'quite a long time', I'm thinking millions of years. But the half life of atmospheric carbon dioxide is less than 100 years. So I read your statement and the first thing that pops into my head is that you're being disingenuous.

    I hear doom and gloom, but they're always put into such vague terms, I believe deliberately. It's like prophecy, if you're vague enough, you're always right.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #57
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Does deep ecology really apply here? It's not established or pervasive, and it's existed longer than this current craze, but still mostly hasn't gone anywhere. I don't think deep ecoloy really supports the idea that current environemtal concerns are being dogged by mysticism.

    As for the invisible hand, it's more intepretation than demonstration. And an interpretation I can easily question at that. It's not really scientific.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Does deep ecology really apply here? It's not established or pervasive, and it's existed longer than this current craze, but still mostly hasn't gone anywhere. I don't think deep ecoloy really supports the idea that current environemtal concerns are being dogged by mysticism.
    I wasn't claiming that Deep Ecology has anything to do with most environmentalists in the world, simply that there are strains of the environmental movement (usually, the fringes) that are prone to quasi-mysticism about the Earth in general and humankind's place within it in particular.

    As for the invisible hand, it's more intepretation than demonstration. And an interpretation I can easily question at that. It's not really scientific.
    It's scientific if you count political science and economics as sciences. It's irrefutable that market-based economies encourage and reward behavior that is economically productive.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #59
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I have been a libertarian for more than a decade, and I've never heard or seen a libertarian berate a perfect stranger in public for riding public transportation or paying taxes.

    BTW, how does one "worship the U.S. Constitution?" I don't get it.
    There have been several libertarians in my town that will regularly hand out pamphlets on street corners. That is comparable in zeal to any religion you might find. Also I've had a libertarian friend tell me that all public education should be abolished. That view seems like it takes the libertarian philosophy to an irrational extreme.

    Libertarians can be both zealous and irrational in their beliefs. However this is not abnormal for political movements at all. Religion by no means has a monopoly on zealous and irrational behavior.
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  10. #60
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    There have been several libertarians in my town that will regularly hand out pamphlets on street corners. That is comparable in zeal to any religion you might find. Also I've had a libertarian friend tell me that all public education should be abolished. That view seems like it takes the libertarian philosophy to an irrational extreme.
    This is a topic for another thread, but that stance is not irrational when you know the facts. But that has nothing to do with this thread, specifically, so it's all I'll say on the matter.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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