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View Poll Results: Has the environmental movement become a religion?

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  • Yes

    13 37.14%
  • No

    16 45.71%
  • Other (explain)

    6 17.14%
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  1. #111
    Member TrueHeart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    They are probably one of the most well-meaning groups of people...they have noble goals. They shouldn't be given a hard time, and let us remember what powers are working to chance your perception of them from positive to negative...oil companies (who were caught spreading anti-Al Gore propaganda, I think it was an ExXon offshoot.) and auto companies being the major ones.
    "Probably"? "Well-meaning"? How do you know that?

    Lots of people with noble goals have done horrible things to bring them about. For instance, it's hard to miss how Communists ended up rather consistently slaughtering the poor people that Communism was supposed to help, no?

    Would that be Evil Big Oil? And Evil Auto Companies? (Or are Auto Companies not not evil, just Big Oil?) Companies that employ thousands of people around the world, providing families with livelihoods and customers with products that make their lives better, if not actually making them possible. (Heating homes in winter keeps people alive, for instance.) And what do you mean by "propaganda"? Pointing out that Al Gore's family uses more energy, for instance, than 10 or 20 typical families in Tennessee put together? (Or whatever the numbers might actually be.)

    So... back to "environmentalists"? Where do they get their money? And why do they get it? Or are we merely supposed to believe that they're all on the up-and-up just because they're "environmentalists" with noble goals? That sounds like it might be a good way for clever folks to hoodwink the unsuspecting.
    "There can be no understanding between the hands and the head unless the heart acts as mediator." (Metropolis, 1927)

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  2. #112
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What exactly are the majority of environmentalists doing wrong? Is it planting trees you hate? Picking up trash? Seems like they do 1000x more good than bad......I have yet to see anyone really point out the great damage they are doing.
    No, of course not. But the radical, political environmentalists about which we were speaking earlier in the thread have very scary ideas. They are less concerned with cleaning up the environment than they are with hating modern society, capitalism, and many things about human nature. I have a problem with THAT.
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  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What exactly are the majority of environmentalists doing wrong? Is it planting trees you hate? Picking up trash? Seems like they do 1000x more good than bad......I have yet to see anyone really point out the great damage they are doing.
    Who said they're doing anything wrong? I didn't. This is what I asked: And why does it matter, really, what they think, or hope, or fear about the environment? Or why does it matter more what an environmentalist thinks, hopes, or fears about the environment that what a rancher, farmer, coal miner, truck driver, small-business owner, or mid-level executive thinks, hopes, or fears about the environment? Do those questions have an answer?
    "There can be no understanding between the hands and the head unless the heart acts as mediator." (Metropolis, 1927)

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  4. #114
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueHeart View Post
    "Probably"? "Well-meaning"? How do you know that?

    Lots of people with noble goals have done horrible things to bring them about. For instance, it's hard to miss how Communists ended up rather consistently slaughtering the poor people that Communism was supposed to help, no?

    Would that be Evil Big Oil? And Evil Auto Companies? (Or are Auto Companies not not evil, just Big Oil?) Companies that employ thousands of people around the world, providing families with livelihoods and customers with products that make their lives better, if not actually making them possible. (Heating homes in winter keeps people alive, for instance.) And what do you mean by "propaganda"? Pointing out that Al Gore's family uses more energy, for instance, than 10 or 20 typical families in Tennessee put together? (Or whatever the numbers might actually be.)

    So... back to "environmentalists"? Where do they get their money? And why do they get it? Or are we merely supposed to believe that they're all on the up-and-up just because they're "environmentalists" with noble goals? That sounds like it might be a good way for clever folks to hoodwink the unsuspecting.
    About them being well-meaning....just look at what they are so often seen doing: cleaning up parks, helping with the cleaning up of oil spills, planting trees. Look up most environmental groups, and most of what they do is cleaning up our environment. Gotta give em credit for that.

    And about Al Gore spending a lot of energy...who cares? It doesn't matter really. The guy has probably done more for the environmental movement than any one man has, recently at least.

  5. #115
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, of course not. But the radical, political environmentalists about which we were speaking earlier in the thread have very scary ideas. They are less concerned with cleaning up the environment than they are with hating modern society, capitalism, and many things about human nature. I have a problem with THAT.
    Can you point out some of the horrible things they are doing? Seems like you aren't against the fact that they are environmentalists but that they might also be against free-market economics.

  6. #116
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueHeart View Post
    Who said they're doing anything wrong? I didn't. This is what I asked: And why does it matter, really, what they think, or hope, or fear about the environment? Or why does it matter more what an environmentalist thinks, hopes, or fears about the environment that what a rancher, farmer, coal miner, truck driver, small-business owner, or mid-level executive thinks, hopes, or fears about the environment? Do those questions have an answer?
    I was talking to pure mercury.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    About them being well-meaning....just look at what they are so often seen doing: cleaning up parks, helping with the cleaning up of oil spills, planting trees. Look up most environmental groups, and most of what they do is cleaning up our environment. Gotta give em credit for that.
    That is one part of the environmental movement, and it's the most positive, IMHO

    And about Al Gore spending a lot of energy...who cares? It doesn't matter really. The guy has probably done more for the environmental movement than any one man has, recently at least.
    It's a little hypocritical of him, but I won't kill him for it, since energy use really isn't a bad thing (Americans use more energy than the Chinese do, but the Chinese pollute more). "Doing a lot for the environmental movement" is not one and the same as doing a lot for humanity as a whole, however.
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  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Can you point out some of the horrible things they are doing? Seems like you aren't against the fact that they are environmentalists but that they might also be against free-market economics.
    Here you go, from wikipedia, the Philosophy section of Radical Environmentalism:

    The radical environmental movement aspires to what scholar Christopher Manes calls "a new kind of environmental activism: iconoclastic, uncompromising, discontented with traditional conservation policy, at time illegal ..." Radical environmentalism presupposes a need to reconsider Western ideas of religion and philosophy (including capitalism, patriarchy[1] and globalization)[2] sometimes through "resacralising" and reconnecting with nature.[1]

    The movement is typified by leaderless resistance organisations such as Earth First!, which subscribe to the idea of taking "direct action" in defense of "mother earth" including civil disobedience, ecotage and monkeywrenching.[1] Movements such as the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and Earth Liberation Army (ELA) also take this form of action, although focus on economic sabotage and guerrilla warfare, rather than civil disobedience.[3] Radical environmentalists include notably earth liberationists, as well as; animal liberationists, bioregionalists, green anarchists, deep ecologists, ecopsychologists, ecofeminists, neo-Pagans, Wiccans, anti-globalisation and anti-capitalist protesters.[1]


    Radical environmentalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    That kind of stuff is bad for the world, not good.
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  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What exactly are the majority of environmentalists doing wrong? Is it planting trees you hate? Picking up trash? Seems like they do 1000x more good than bad......I have yet to see anyone really point out the great damage they are doing.
    Tree farmers plant more trees than tree huggers and no one has to tell an individual to pick up trash if he owns the property it's on.

    No one is opposed to planting trees or picking up trash. Do you pay attention to the news at all? Many environmentalists aren't content with just being the change they want to see in the world. The movement is largely a front for socialism, people who essentially see human beings as a scourge on the earth, and others who want to profit off green guilt.
    Global warming rage lets global hunger grow - Telegraph
    Death by Environmentalism
    ^here's an essay that outlines major disastrous consequences of environmentalist policies such as the France heat wave deaths, the deaths attributed to the CAFE standards, etc.
    I don't wanna!

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    About them being well-meaning....just look at what they are so often seen doing: cleaning up parks, helping with the cleaning up of oil spills, planting trees. Look up most environmental groups, and most of what they do is cleaning up our environment. Gotta give em credit for that.
    So, "environmentalists" clean up parks, etc? What makes them different from ranchers, farmers, homemakers, factory workers, and scouts who do that?

    Perhaps we are talking past each other, because I was getting the notion that when (for instance, in this thread) "environmentalists" are mentioned, it carries a connotation of somebody who has some special expertise about the environment, like a scientist. If I am mistaken, I apologize.

    But if an "environmentalist" is just somebody who helps to keep some local area clean and green, why do environmentalists' opinions about environment matter more than anybody else's? Do they have special or advanced knowledge about global ecosystems? Just 'cause they plant trees?

    I have surmise that some people think environmentalists' opinions matter more because, for instance, their opinions have been so often asserted on this thread, as if... like... when environmentalists say it, it must be so; again, if I am mistaken about that, I apologize.

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    And about Al Gore spending a lot of energy...who cares? It doesn't matter really. The guy has probably done more for the environmental movement than any one man has, recently at least.
    As long as we do what he says, not what he does, it's okay with you? I suspect that former generations would have called his behavior hypocrisy, but I guess there must be a new morality that deals with that.

    Frankly, I'll believe we're in an environmental crisis when the people who say so starting living so. In the meantime, I conclude that they don't believe it themselves and just want to tell the rest of us how to live.
    "There can be no understanding between the hands and the head unless the heart acts as mediator." (Metropolis, 1927)

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