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View Poll Results: Has the environmental movement become a religion?

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  • Yes

    13 37.14%
  • No

    16 45.71%
  • Other (explain)

    6 17.14%
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  1. #91
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    China is currently the world's #1 polluter, not the U.S.
    Ah that must have changed in the last few years. I wasn't aware that China had surpassed the US. (This doesn't really change what I've said, but it's an interesting fact to know.)
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  2. #92
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Well, Laser, as I was pointing out, developing nations pose the biggest threat. What scares a lot of environemtalists is that we are on the verge of an enormous second world boom, with India being by far the worst part of it.

    But is true, the most populace nations are China, India, the EU(which for our current purposes, should probably be counted), the USA, and then what? Indonesia? I know that Brazil and Russia are somewhere in the top ten.

    The point is that more than half of the world's population lives in countries either industrialized or on the verge of booming(which is even worse than being post-industrial). Less developed countries may have higher growth rates, but in a country as populated as China, even a 0.6% growth rate implies a ton of new people. New people in a country that's becoming more excessive every day. 1.5% in India, which is increasing it's production and development regluarly. It's more frightening than the third world nations are.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #93
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    None of what you wrote is in any way a probable outcome of the world population growing to, say, 8 billion people, as it is very likely to do in the next 15-20 years.
    Ummm.. Hasn't it been thoroughly recorded that we are harvesting resources faster than they grow, and creating pollution faster than it dissipates?

    If the answer is yes, then we have the problem of depletion/accumulation, and that's all that matters.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #94
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Remember that it only took very minor adjustments to make an earthlike planet into the ultra-high pressue ball of sulfuric acid that is Venus today.
    Very minor adjustments? Then answer these questions:

    - What can humans do to knock the Earth out of its current orbit, so that it's 30 million miles closer to the sun than it is right now?

    - What can humans do to destroy the Earth's magnetic field?

    - What can humans do to rid the Earth of all of its water?

    It's statements like yours that give people the impression that global warming alarmists are disingenuous. Very minor?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #95
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Very minor adjustments? Then answer these questions:

    - What can humans do to knock the Earth out of its current orbit, so that it's 30 million miles closer to the sun than it is right now?

    - What can humans do to destroy the Earth's magnetic field?

    - What can humans do to rid the Earth of all of its water?

    It's statements like yours that give people the impression that global warming alarmists are disingenuous. Very minor?
    You're missing the point completely. The second two you mentioned are by-products. The first point is what caused the others. The actual effect of it being closer to the sun was just a relatively small increase in the temperature and the radiation levels, and that alone set-off the series of events that made Venus radically different from the Earth.

    So my point stands. A relatively small difference in the enviroment changes the course dramatically. We don't have to get closer to the sun to simulate the vital effects.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #96
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, Laser, as I was pointing out, developing nations pose the biggest threat. What scares a lot of environemtalists is that we are on the verge of an enormous second world boom, with India being by far the worst part of it.

    But is true, the most populace nations are China, India, the EU(which for our current purposes, should probably be counted), the USA, and then what? Indonesia? I know that Brazil and Russia are somewhere in the top ten.

    The point is that more than half of the world's population lives in countries either industrialized or on the verge of booming(which is even worse than being post-industrial). Less developed countries may have higher growth rates, but in a country as populated as China, even a 0.6% growth rate implies a ton of new people. New people in a country that's becoming more excessive every day. 1.5% in India, which is increasing it's production and development regluarly. It's more frightening than the third world nations are.
    Again the growth rate is not really the issue though. The issue is that China and India already have billions of people, and each of those people is using a lot more resources per capita (and that rate is increasing). The solution is in responsible use of resources and not in population control. If we alter our planet's climate too much before learning to use resources responsibly, then there will be a very effective (and abrupt and painful) population control. An extra 1.5% growth rate is insignificant. It's the resource per capita rate that matters.
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  7. #97
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Again the growth rate is not really the issue though. The issue is that China and India already have billions of people, and each of those people is using a lot more resources per capita (and that rate is increasing). The solution is in responsible use of resources and not in population control. If we alter our planet's climate too much before learning to use resources responsibly, then there will be a very effective (and abrupt and painful) population control. An extra 1.5% growth rate is insignificant. It's the resource per capita rate that matters.
    I was partly acknowledging that.
    It is true that our current behavior is going to probably hurt us faster than population problems might. My point was that, sooner or later, it is going to be problem though. Even if we get over this current problem, there is just a realistic, practical limit the amount of people this planet can handle. There's a certain threshold where you can't be efficient enough. Who knows, maybe that's 12 billion people. Regardless, it is an inevitable problem. People worship growth too much.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #98
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You're missing the point completely. The second two you mentioned are by-products. The first point is what caused the others. The actual effect of it being closer to the sun was just a relatively small increase in the temperature and the radiation levels, and that alone set-off the series of events that made Venus radically different from the Earth.

    So my point stands. A relatively small difference in the enviroment changes the course dramatically. We don't have to get closer to the sun to simulate the vital effects.
    No, I'm not missing your point, at all. I understand exactly what you're trying to say, and I think it's BS.

    To claim that the final two conditions are exclusively (I have to assume exclusively, otherwise your statement is worthless) by-products of the first is pure speculation. We have observed other planetary systems with gas giants orbiting their stars at a distance near 1AU. The fact of the matter is that we know very little about planetary formation. To make the claim you have made...that's why I call the environmental movement a religion.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #99
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    ...that's why I call the environmental movement a religion.
    All I'd like to say is that even if I were wrong with that point, your apparent criteria for calling something a religion is... poor, at best. It was only one of my points, perhaps even a lesser point, it was not devoid of scientific reasons(even if you assert that we don't know enough yet), and it had nothing to do with spiritualism or theology, and perhaps only indirectly connected to ethical philosophy.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #100
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    All I'd like to say is that even if I were wrong with that point, your apparent criteria for calling something a religion is... poor, at best. It was only one of my points, perhaps even a lesser point, it was not devoid of scientific reasons(even if you assert that we don't know enough yet), and it had nothing to do with spiritualism or theology, and perhaps only indirectly connected to ethical philosophy.
    Poor basis or not, there are people that want to control the lives of others based on hasty conclusions. I would call these hasty conclusions faith-based. And with faith, you get...
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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