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  1. #1
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Default Senator Warren: 17 Million Reasons to Raise the Minimum Wage

    OPINION: 17 Million Reasons to Raise the Minimum Wage

    No one should work full time and live in poverty. In 1968, the minimum wage was high enough to keep a family of three out of poverty. In 1980, the minimum wage was at least high enough to keep a family of two out of poverty. Today, the minimum wage leaves a working parent with one child in poverty. This is fundamentally wrong.
    How does someone as economically ignorant as Senator Warren get elected? Economist Milton Friedman explained repeatedly (look it up on Youtube) why and how minimum wage laws hurt the poor. He called it the most anti-black law in the books and for good reason. Minimum wage laws result in increased unemployment among those who are least skilled and educated. Every time the minimum wage is increased, we see a spike in teen and black unemployment. The reasons are quite obvious. The market is willing to pay only what your talent and skill level demands. If your talent is only worth $5/hour but the government mandates that the company pays you $10/hour, the company will simply refuse to hire you.

    I'm reading a book right now about a runaway, homeless teen (Breaking Night by Liz Murray). She was raised by two drug addicted parents who used up their welfare check in the first week buying drugs. This teen wanted to get a job bagging groceries (at 13 yrs old) but there was an age restriction and a minimum wage. The grocery store hired immigrant workers instead because they were better workers. Now, if the minimum age were lower, this teenager might've stood a better chance.

    What lefties like Senator Warren fail to understand is that it is her policies that drive up poverty. Lefty policies like the minimum wage, Obamacare, the entire anti-fossil fuel agenda, high taxes, anti-school choice, and over-regulation all drive up poverty by reducing opportunities. There are few poor people in North Dakota because they are at full employment and have a huge demand for labor. There is opportunity in North Dakota and in Midland, Texas. As supply sider Art Laffer says, "The best anti-poverty program is a job." We are now in year 5 of this leftist administration. Under Obama, the number of people on food stamps has about doubled and the real unemployment rate (the U6 number) is 13.1%.

    Senator Warren, do the country a favor and watch some Milton Friedman youtube videos.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    How does someone as economically ignorant as Senator Warren get elected? Economist Milton Friedman explained repeatedly (look it up on Youtube) why and how minimum wage laws hurt the poor. He called it the most anti-black law in the books and for good reason. Minimum wage laws result in increased unemployment among those who are least skilled and educated. Every time the minimum wage is increased, we see a spike in teen and black unemployment. The reasons are quite obvious. The market is willing to pay only what your talent and skill level demands. If your talent is only worth $5/hour but the government mandates that the company pays you $10/hour, the company will simply refuse to hire you.
    Surely Milton Friedman was aware that there's a difference between a minimum wage of $10/hour and $50/hour and that as long as you didn't set the minimum wage too high, the effect on employment would be negligible. I've read a few of his books and he struck me as intelligent enough to admit to this fact. If he didn't admit to this fact (it's been a long time since I've read his books, so I don't remember), then he must believe that minimum wage is causing unemployment right now. I find that proposition to be laughable. You can walk into almost any establishment that pays minimum wage (fast food, big box stores, etc) and get a job almost immediately. Those establishments can't even keep the employees they have because people don't want those jobs. The pay is too low. So what you we have a situation where a lot of these businesses have really high employee turnover because employees quit.

    I'm reading a book right now about a runaway, homeless teen (Breaking Night by Liz Murray). She was raised by two drug addicted parents who used up their welfare check in the first week buying drugs. This teen wanted to get a job bagging groceries (at 13 yrs old) but there was an age restriction and a minimum wage. The grocery store hired immigrant workers instead because they were better workers. Now, if the minimum age were lower, this teenager might've stood a better chance.
    She's 13 years old and she can't get a job because of the minimum wage? Or because of child labor laws? What a disingenuous argument you're making here. She can't get a job because she's 13. It's illegal to employ her. Do you want child labor laws abolished?

    What lefties like Senator Warren fail to understand is that it is her policies that drive up poverty. Lefty policies like the minimum wage, Obamacare, the entire anti-fossil fuel agenda, high taxes, anti-school choice, and over-regulation all drive up poverty by reducing opportunities. There are few poor people in North Dakota because they are at full employment and have a huge demand for labor. There is opportunity in North Dakota and in Midland, Texas. As supply sider Art Laffer says, "The best anti-poverty program is a job." We are now in year 5 of this leftist administration. Under Obama, the number of people on food stamps has about doubled and the real unemployment rate (the U6 number) is 13.1%.

    Senator Warren, do the country a favor and watch some Milton Friedman youtube videos.
    The best anti-poverty program is a job? What's $7.25/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year? That's $14,500. That's $1208.33 per month. Do you think these people should work more than 40 hours per week or more than 50 weeks per year? Let's say they work 10 extra hours per week and 52 weeks a year. It can't be overtime because establishments that pay minimum wage do everything they can to make sure you don't get overtime. It's gotta be a second job. $7.25*50*52 = $18,850. So working like a dog for an entire year, without a vacation, earns you just enough money to be above the poverty line after taxes...if you don't have a kid (maybe, I'm estimating the taxes in my head). Well, I must say that Art Laffer is right. Let's get those kids out of school and out flipping burgers at McDonalds.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #3
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    Surely Milton Friedman was aware that there's a difference between a minimum wage of $10/hour and $50/hour and that as long as you didn't set the minimum wage too high, the effect on employment would be negligible.
    Historically, minimum wage laws were supported by trade unions to keep out the unskilled (black) laborers. During the Great Depression, many of the poor blacks were concentrated in the South. The only way they could get a decent job was to first acquire the skills and to do so they had to take low paying jobs. By mandating a minimum wage, trade unions discouraged businesses from hiring unskilled (black) workers and encouraged mechanization. We know what happens when minimum wage laws are passed. With the NRA (Natl. Recovery Admin) and the Fair Labor Standards Act, liberal Democrats in Congress and FDR imposed minimum wage requirements on various businesses resulting in 500,000 plus black workers losing their jobs.

    "The Labor Dept reported in 1938 that between 30,000 and 50,000 workers, mostly southern African Americans, lost their jobs because of the minimum wage within two weeks of the Fair Labor Standards Act's imposition." Jim Powell (FDR's Folly)

    You can walk into almost any establishment that pays minimum wage (fast food, big box stores, etc) and get a job almost immediately.
    I don't think this is true either. Here's a youtube clip of 500 job applicants lining up for a job at a burger joint:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGonRk9xYkA

    She's 13 years old and she can't get a job because of the minimum wage? Or because of child labor laws? What a disingenuous argument you're making here. She can't get a job because she's 13. It's illegal to employ her. Do you want child labor laws abolished?
    Both factors. I do want some child labor work laws eliminated because some kids will starve (like Liz Murray) because they can't find work. What's wrong with letting a 13 year old bag groceries during the week-end?

    The best anti-poverty program is a job? What's $7.25/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year? That's $14,500. That's $1208.33 per month.
    Is there more or less poverty in North Dakota (2.3% unemployment) vs Detroit (17.7% unemployment in August 2013)? The problem with people like Senator Warren is they support policies which kill jobs. Fighting the construction of the Keystone Pipeline kills jobs. Using the EPA to restrict fracking kills jobs; Cap and Trade kills jobs; raising taxes kills jobs; regulations like Obamacare kills jobs; a high minimum wage kills jobs, etc. When the economy is vibrant, there is less poverty. Why won't lefties like Senator Warren embrace pro-growth policies like drilling in ANWR or cutting regulations and taxes?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Historically, minimum wage laws were supported by trade unions to keep out the unskilled (black) laborers. During the Great Depression, many of the poor blacks were concentrated in the South. The only way they could get a decent job was to first acquire the skills and to do so they had to take low paying jobs. By mandating a minimum wage, trade unions discouraged businesses from hiring unskilled (black) workers and encouraged mechanization. We know what happens when minimum wage laws are passed. With the NRA (Natl. Recovery Admin) and the Fair Labor Standards Act, liberal Democrats in Congress and FDR imposed minimum wage requirements on various businesses resulting in 500,000 plus black workers losing their jobs.

    "The Labor Dept reported in 1938 that between 30,000 and 50,000 workers, mostly southern African Americans, lost their jobs because of the minimum wage within two weeks of the Fair Labor Standards Act's imposition." Jim Powell (FDR's Folly)
    What does that have to do with 2014? Minimum wages are a tool. They can be used to help or harm people. Don't blame the tool. Blame the people who used the tool to harm. And again, what does 1938 have to do with this? That was nearly 80 years ago. Maybe you haven't noticed, but things have changed a little bit since then.

    I don't think this is true either. Here's a youtube clip of 500 job applicants lining up for a job at a burger joint:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGonRk9xYkA
    You know why people lined up? In-N-Out Burger doesn't pay minimum wage. They start all employees out well above minimum wage.

    I have a younger brother who just a few weeks ago was looking for a minimum wage job. He walked into 4 different places to fill out an application and had calls back from all of them for an interview within a week. None of them offered more than $7.25 (company policy), but they all offered him a job. That's a 100% success rate and he's got a horrible job history. He spent the last 5+ years playing online poker to pay his bills.


    Both factors. I do want some child labor work laws eliminated because some kids will starve (like Liz Murray) because they can't find work. What's wrong with letting a 13 year old bag groceries during the week-end?
    No, only her age played a factor in her not getting a job. There was not a single company that said, "We'd love to break the law and hire you, but we can't break the law and pay you less than $7.25".

    Is there more or less poverty in North Dakota (2.3% unemployment) vs Detroit (17.7% unemployment in August 2013)? The problem with people like Senator Warren is they support policies which kill jobs. Fighting the construction of the Keystone Pipeline kills jobs. Using the EPA to restrict fracking kills jobs; Cap and Trade kills jobs; raising taxes kills jobs; regulations like Obamacare kills jobs; a high minimum wage kills jobs, etc. When the economy is vibrant, there is less poverty. Why won't lefties like Senator Warren embrace pro-growth policies like drilling in ANWR or cutting regulations and taxes?
    It's not just people like Senator Warren who support crony capitalism, it's Republicans too. Hell, the capital of the Republican party, Texas, has regulations in place that keep Tesla from doing business there. Why? Because dealerships are afraid Tesla will undermine their business model. They don't want consumers to have a choice so they bought off legislators in many states, including the "free market" state of Texas (and Republican Chris Christie in New Jersey). Free market my ass. Texas has as much crony capitalism as any other state. Crony capitalism is not the sole province of either party. They're both corrupt.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #5
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    What does that have to do with 2014? Minimum wages are a tool.
    Because a fallacy in 1938 is still a fallacy in 2014. When you increase the minimum wage, you are increasing the spending power of one group, but you are decreasing the spending power of another group, the share holders. Lefties like Warren do not understand that shifting the money from one pair of hands to another does not help the economy. The only solution to poverty is to grow the economy and Senator Warren is anti-growth. These people hate capitalists and hate the free market.

    Crony capitalism is not the sole province of either party. They're both corrupt.
    And yet, we've seen wildly successful economies in states run by Republicans such as Texas, which has a $12 billion budget surplus and no state income taxes. We've also seen mass exoduses (exodii?) of people in lefty run states like New Jersey, New York, and California.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Because a fallacy in 1938 is still a fallacy in 2014. When you increase the minimum wage, you are increasing the spending power of one group, but you are decreasing the spending power of another group, the share holders. Lefties like Warren do not understand that shifting the money from one pair of hands to another does not help the economy. The only solution to poverty is to grow the economy and Senator Warren is anti-growth. These people hate capitalists and hate the free market.
    What fallacy? That the minimum wage is a tool that can be used to help or harm?

    Economics is the "shifting of money from one pair of hands to another". What do you think is happening what you buy gasoline? Money is being shifted from your hands to another person's hands. Does that not help the economy? It decreases your spending power, while increasing the spending power of the gas station where you bought the gasoline. That's clearly a bad thing in your mind.

    I don't think you've really thought this through.

    And yet, we've seen wildly successful economies in states run by Republicans such as Texas, which has a $12 billion budget surplus and no state income taxes. We've also seen mass exoduses (exodii?) of people in lefty run states like New Jersey, New York, and California.
    Texas has a wildly successful economy? That would probably be news to a lot of people in Texas, where the poverty rate is rising.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/news/commu...verty-9894.ece

    If the economic system you advocate was so wonderful, then the poverty rate should be dropping in Texas. Or do you blame Obamacare for that? Or if you can't find someone to blame, do you just say "Poverty is okay. The world needs rich people and poor people"?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #7
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    What fallacy? That the minimum wage is a tool that can be used to help or harm?
    The fallacy is the belief that one can create prosperity or eliminate poverty through wage controls. Even during the Depression, minimum wage laws helped those in the trade unions who were lucky enough to have a job, but the net effect was negative because more people were hurt than were helped.

    Economics is the "shifting of money from one pair of hands to another". What do you think is happening what you buy gasoline? Money is being shifted from your hands to another person's hands. Does that not help the economy? It decreases your spending power, while increasing the spending power of the gas station where you bought the gasoline. That's clearly a bad thing in your mind.
    I hope you aren't arguing for redistribution of wealth. Me buying gasoline helps the economy, but me using government aid to buy gasoline does not help. See the difference?

    Texas has a wildly successful economy? That would probably be news to a lot of people in Texas, where the poverty rate is rising.
    I'm judging economies based on job creation and tax revenue. Compared to Michigan (9% unemployment) and California (8.7% unemployment), Texas (6.2% unemployment) is wildly successful. Other successful Republican governors include Scott Walker, Bobby Jindal, and John Kasich. You'll always find pockets of poverty even in Texas because some cities are run by lefties. In the case of Texas, there are millions of recent immigrants and they tend to be poor.

    If the economic system you advocate was so wonderful, then the poverty rate should be dropping in Texas. Or do you blame Obamacare for that?
    Obamacare is a job killer. According to the CBO, it'll kill 2.5 million jobs over the next decade. That's probably a conservative estimate.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The fallacy is the belief that one can create prosperity or eliminate poverty through wage controls. Even during the Depression, minimum wage laws helped those in the trade unions who were lucky enough to have a job, but the net effect was negative because more people were hurt than were helped.
    Did I say the minimum wage creates prosperity? No. Stop creating straw man arguments. I'm simply refuting your claim that raising the minimum wage leads to an automatic increase in unemployment. I suggest you read the following link:

    http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ge-2013-02.pdf

    I hope you aren't arguing for redistribution of wealth. Me buying gasoline helps the economy, but me using government aid to buy gasoline does not help. See the difference?
    All economic transactions are a redistribution of wealth. /facepalm

    I'm judging economies based on job creation and tax revenue. Compared to Michigan (9% unemployment) and California (8.7% unemployment), Texas (6.2% unemployment) is wildly successful. Other successful Republican governors include Scott Walker, Bobby Jindal, and John Kasich. You'll always find pockets of poverty even in Texas because some cities are run by lefties. In the case of Texas, there are millions of recent immigrants and they tend to be poor.
    Well, you found your group to blame. Anything to avoid confronting the idea that supply-side economics is not all its cracked up to be.

    Obamacare is a job killer. According to the CBO, it'll kill 2.5 million jobs over the next decade. That's probably a conservative estimate.
    You've got so many things to blame, Obamacare, immigrants, lazy black people...it's going to be a long, long time before you confront the idea that supply-side economics is only suitable for underdeveloped economies that lack capital.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #9
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    Did I say the minimum wage creates prosperity? No. Stop creating straw man arguments. I'm simply refuting your claim that raising the minimum wage leads to an automatic increase in unemployment.
    This is the argument used by Senator Warren and other lefties, that increasing the minimum wage reduces poverty. It does not.

    All economic transactions are a redistribution of wealth. /facepalm
    Really? The term "redistribution of wealth" is understood to mean redistribution from the top income brackets to the lower brackets through taxes and other means.

    Anything to avoid confronting the idea that supply-side economics is not all its cracked up to be.
    19 million jobs from Reaganomics compared to FDR and Obama's dismal economic record.

    You've got so many things to blame, Obamacare, immigrants, lazy black people...it's going to be a long, long time before you confront the idea that supply-side economics is only suitable for underdeveloped economies that lack capital.
    The CBO says Obamacare will cost 2.5 million jobs. I never said blacks were lazy. It is a fact that immigrants tend to cluster in the lower income brackets. It is also a fact that supply-side policies have worked where-ever they've been implemented.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This is the argument used by Senator Warren and other lefties, that increasing the minimum wage reduces poverty. It does not.
    This doesn't prove or even support your claim that raising the minimum wage will automatically lead to an increase in unemployment. You've done nothing to support that claim other than wave your hands and make broad assertions. Where is your evidence?

    Really? The term "redistribution of wealth" is understood to mean redistribution from the top income brackets to the lower brackets through taxes and other means.
    Yes, all economic transaction result in a change in the distribution of wealth. Is this really so difficult to understand?

    19 million jobs from Reaganomics compared to FDR and Obama's dismal economic record.
    19 million from Reaganomics alone? Nothing unrelated Reaganomics had an impact? Link?

    The CBO says Obamacare will cost 2.5 million jobs. I never said blacks were lazy. It is a fact that immigrants tend to cluster in the lower income brackets. It is also a fact that supply-side policies have worked where-ever they've been implemented.
    Supply-side economic policies have been in place for 30+ years in the US. They're clearly doing wonderfully. Oh wait, you're gonna say they haven't been because Obamacare or whatever.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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