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  1. #21
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Everyone dying deserves a little respect. I can't say I feel much for the guy, and I'm quite glad he's not alive anymore as he did little good in his time here. Still, I wouldn't say its a fantastic thing for people to die. There's something.. very hypocritical about demanding respect for all dead people, and then denying it here.

    If you don't like them picketing funerals.. then treat them with the respect you'd like to see from them.
    What makes picketing funerals bothersome is not the disrespect towards the dead but deliberately hurting the feelings of those grieving for them. All those grieving for Fred Phelps, however, are likely to be assholes themselves...

    Of course, I do not believe that everyone dying deserves a little respect. Why should they?

  2. #22
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What makes picketing funerals bothersome is not the disrespect towards the dead but deliberately hurting the feelings of those grieving for them. All those grieving for Fred Phelps, however, are likely to be assholes themselves...

    Of course, I do not believe that everyone dying deserves a little respect. Why should they?
    I do though, for three reasons:
    1. The people surviving them, as you said. One of this guy's sons has no ties to his church--and probably no relationship with his father... but it IS still his father. I'm sure he wouldn't want to deal with angry picketers when he's trying to go through a situation like losing 1. the guy who helped create you at all and 2. the same guy who abused you and those you loved, all in the same situation.
    2. The more I age, the more I realize that nobody truly knows anything. The story is painted always--it's never really a photograph. And those brushstrokes are interpretations by others. Meaning they won't ever say the raw absolute truth. Bad people create good people, they might have been assholes to some but mentors to others.. everything is very relative. Even if those close to him didn't respect him, and even if he created a massive movement against progression of society.. To just assume you know a story is ignorant and childish. No one knows the story in its entirety.
    3. Disrespecting him does nothing for the living, nor does it hurt the dead. When you're battling something like hatred, you don't fight it with the very thing you're against. Hating the people that hate doesn't make them hate less, nor does it fix anything. So, even if he personally hurt you or yours through his movement (my cousin had to be evacuated from her work because of a picketing from that church), protesting his funeral wouldn't somehow make that right. It wouldn't fix anything, nor would it progress the battle. It'd only strengthen the enemy's resolve, and we'd start wearing similar uniforms in the process.

    Showing respect and being honorable about your own actions for a principle is NOT the same as liking someone, or condoning what they do/did in life. It isn't about being on a moral pedestal and looking down on others.. but it is about holding onto your principles. The only people I could see picketing his funeral are those that are just like him. Everyone else would be a massive, massive hypocrite. Where do you draw the line? "Protesting soldier funerals and gay funerals is WRONG.. But it's okay to protest assholes." It doesn't make sense at all.
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  3. #23
    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    Fred Phelps was a douchebag. And I want a T-shirt that says 'Fred Phelps was a douchebag'. With a picture of Fred Phelps's face photoshopped on an actual douchebag.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I do though, for three reasons:
    1. The people surviving them, as you said. One of this guy's sons has no ties to his church--and probably no relationship with his father... but it IS still his father. I'm sure he wouldn't want to deal with angry picketers when he's trying to go through a situation like losing 1. the guy who helped create you at all and 2. the same guy who abused you and those you loved, all in the same situation.
    2. The more I age, the more I realize that nobody truly knows anything. The story is painted always--it's never really a photograph. And those brushstrokes are interpretations by others. Meaning they won't ever say the raw absolute truth. Bad people create good people, they might have been assholes to some but mentors to others.. everything is very relative. Even if those close to him didn't respect him, and even if he created a massive movement against progression of society.. To just assume you know a story is ignorant and childish. No one knows the story in its entirety.
    3. Disrespecting him does nothing for the living, nor does it hurt the dead. When you're battling something like hatred, you don't fight it with the very thing you're against. Hating the people that hate doesn't make them hate less, nor does it fix anything. So, even if he personally hurt you or yours through his movement (my cousin had to be evacuated from her work because of a picketing from that church), protesting his funeral wouldn't somehow make that right. It wouldn't fix anything, nor would it progress the battle. It'd only strengthen the enemy's resolve, and we'd start wearing similar uniforms in the process.
    Your second reason is the only one that actually argues for respecting the dead. The first one is about not hurting the bereaved, the third about whether it is good politics.

    My objection to the second argument is that, though we do not know the entire story, we do know enough to make a decision as to how 'good' a person he was. I think we (or at least I) also know enough about his family to decide whether they are sufficiently guilty of assholery to be subjected to a picketed funeral. I think he was a horrible person and his family is rife with assholes. Thus, the dissident son becomes a casualty of legitimate revenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Showing respect and being honorable about your own actions for a principle is NOT the same as liking someone, or condoning what they do/did in life. It isn't about being on a moral pedestal and looking down on others.. but it is about holding onto your principles. The only people I could see picketing his funeral are those that are just like him. Everyone else would be a massive, massive hypocrite. Where do you draw the line? "Protesting soldier funerals and gay funerals is WRONG.. But it's okay to protest assholes." It doesn't make sense at all.
    It is not my principle to respect everyone equally. That seems really preposterous to me. So, it makes perfect sense to me to protest assholes.

  5. #25
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm quite glad he's not alive anymore as he did little good in his time here.
    Actually he probably had more balls and fought more for social justice than most of his vocal opponents, as he was a civil rights attorney taking on cases of racial discrimination when no one else would during the time the Jim Crow laws still were in action. Not that it balances out all the harm he has caused, but there was more to him than hating homosexuals.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Good riddance.

    Respect should be given where it is due, and certainly not to those who disrespect others.

  7. #27
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Your second reason is the only one that actually argues for respecting the dead. The first one is about not hurting the bereaved, the third about whether it is good politics.
    It's a difference in opinion here. To me, they're all connected, the third particularly to this situation, but it could apply to anyone of influence.. Respecting the deceased has an impact on the living--but not the dead. It's the only reason why it's important. If no one in society cared about what happened to the dead, those picketers wouldn't have ever been there in the first place. And no one would be happy this guy was dead. Focusing on just the deceased is too small of a picture. Very, very, very few people just die and don't influence the living at all in the process. It doesn't work that way.

    Yes, technically, the second point is only focused on the dead themselves. But that's certainly not the only factor present. People want to picket his death for the WBC--it has nothing to do with this guy. This guy can't see them do it. They want to influence the living, and their own lives and anger, with that. And venting your anger in negative ways is--well.. how people end up beating their families, and starting cult-like churches that picket funerals of soldiers and gays. Because people encouraged that behavior--either through silence, or by actively accepting it as an exception to some vague rule that can clearly be broken easily.

    My objection to the second argument is that, though we do not know the entire story, we do know enough to make a decision as to how 'good' a person he was. I think we (or at least I) also know enough about his family to decide whether they are sufficiently guilty of assholery to be subjected to a picketed funeral. I think he was a horrible person and his family is rife with assholes. Thus, the dissident son becomes a casualty of legitimate revenge.
    And this guy is saying he fought for black people when no one else would. So no, we don't know the whole story about anyone. I'm glad he's dead, because he started a fire that isn't burning out anytime soon, and whatever good he did doesn't take away from that. But, as you see, it's difficult to judge someone and not judge their whole family. His son literally did nothing wrong, and you just shrug your shoulders and say, "Sorry, but your dad's a dick and I don't care. Also, you're an asshole your whole life by association. I just believe that, without any evidence or support. Infact, ALL of you are assholes and terrible people that deserve to die." ..Which I'm pretty sure is how the WBC got to the conclusion that being gay is a catastrophic sin in the first place.

    It is not my principle to respect everyone equally. That seems really preposterous to me. So, it makes perfect sense to me to protest assholes.
    Protest assholes, sure. Whatever.. But he's not an asshole anymore. He's dead. He's a dead corpse. And, probably, if people had more general respect for themselves, strangers, and others, someone might have reached out and gotten him some serious help long before he turned into a raging asshole. Maybe. We'll never really know.

    Quote Originally Posted by unsung View Post
    Actually he probably had more balls and fought more for social justice than most of his vocal opponents, as he was a civil rights attorney taking on cases of racial discrimination when no one else would during the time the Jim Crow laws still were in action. Not that it balances out all the harm he has caused, but there was more to him than hating homosexuals.
    To me, that doesn't change the movement he made. He created hatred, which is even more incomprehensible considering THIS information. I don't understand how someone fighting hatred can possibly start it later on.
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  8. #28
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Let memory of him shrivel up, like his twisted scrotum.
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  9. #29
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    To me, that doesn't change the movement he made. He created hatred, which is even more incomprehensible considering THIS information. I don't understand how someone fighting hatred can possibly start it later on.
    It doesn't change my opinion of his anti-gay crusade either. I was just objecting when you said he did little good during his time alive.

    Since his hatred of homosexuals stemmed from religious beliefs, maybe he didn't hate blacks because his religion didn't express any animosity against them. What we do know, looking at both his history as a civil rights attorney and hatemonger, is that he seemed to have a deeply rooted and unwavering set of ethics, possibly all derived from his religion/the bible. So maybe he couldn't find reasons in the source of his moral code to hate blacks but instead treated them with the kind of respect that Jesus preached (presuming he based his morals on his religious beliefs), and given his strong moral conviction actually dared to defend them in a time when racism was rife in the USA.

    The flipside of that level of zealousness is when it's coupled with hatred. Since he interpreted the bible as speaking against gays, that's also the stance he adopted, becoming the gay bashing hatemonger we know him as today. That would be my guess on why he could fight both for and against social justice at the same time.

  10. #30
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unsung View Post
    It doesn't change my opinion of his anti-gay crusade either. I was just objecting when you said he did little good during his time alive.

    Since his hatred of homosexuals stemmed from religious beliefs, maybe he didn't hate blacks because his religion didn't express any animosity against them. What we do know, looking at both his history as a civil rights attorney and hatemonger, is that he seemed to have a deeply rooted and unwavering set of ethics, possibly all derived from his religion/the bible. So maybe he couldn't find reasons in the source of his moral code to hate blacks but instead treated them with the kind of respect that Jesus preached (presuming he based his morals on his religious beliefs), and given his strong moral conviction actually dared to defend them in a time when racism was rife in the USA.

    The flipside of that level of zealousness is when it's coupled with hatred. Since he interpreted the bible as speaking against gays, that's also the stance he adopted, becoming the gay bashing hatemonger we know him as today. That would be my guess on why he could fight both for and against social justice at the same time.
    Alright, and I'm no bible-ologist, but I'm almost certain the Bible says several times that GOD will be in charge of all the judgments and punishments, and that people should treat everyone with kindness and respect despite being enemies of any sort. Meaning yeah, he can think that being homosexual goes against everything ever, but that doesn't translate into hate at all.

    Seeing as he could see the damage hatred made on blacks.. it makes no sense that he'd turn right around and start a campaign of hatred to reign down on those he deemed unworthy. Jesus didn't say, "Hey, all you gays get out of here so I can feed all the awesome people fish and bread." It still goes against every single one of Jesus' teachings. No, I very much-so doubt he was a good man at heart.. I don't know his motivations for fighting for black people, but there are several that have nothing to do with whether or not he agreed with racism in law. Like money and an open market and demand for supply.
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