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  1. #1
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Default What if for pro-lifers it's not about religion or morals?

    so i was thinking the anti abortion people, do you think they're actually outlawing abortions and making it harder to get one, because they plan to build an army using unwanted children? I mean it makes sense, like the U.S. is turning into a shit hole, and the anti-abortion people realize that they're losing the general public, and so they're probably all like. well I'll build an army! but where to get the soldiers? I know we'll make abortions illegal and since the parents won't want them they'll put them into foster care and raise them to be soldiers. and we'll one day over throw this country and sale it to china and live off the spoils. Of course we'll need supporters, let's convince fundamental christians that the bible says all these things are wrong that would actually move the country forward. Oh but what if we can't manipulate scripture to say that? oh we'll just call it socialism.And the minions we'll think they're making the country a better place, but we'll squash them like the rest.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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    To put it simply, we don't think killing babies is very nice. Its murder you see

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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozones View Post
    To put it simply, we don't think killing babies is very nice. Its murder you see
    you aren't high enough to know the truth, clearly
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I didn't think all the right-wingers were personally adopting/fostering these kids, they're just letting them being born and then they're stuck with birth parents who can't adequately maintain or parent them, perpetuating the cycle.

    Not much of an army, if you were hoping for "The Boys From Brazil" or something.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I didn't think all the right-wingers were personally adopting/fostering these kids, they're just letting them being born and then they're stuck with birth parents who can't adequately maintain or parent them, perpetuating the cycle.

    Not much of an army, if you were hoping for "The Boys From Brazil" or something.
    that's even meaner, because at least being brainwashed soldiers they'd have a purpose
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #6
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know about the States, but in Canada there are many, many people waiting to adopt children. I know a number of both single people and couples who have been waiting for years and are even willing to take an older child. I also know more than one family who has adopted 3-4 children who are from the same biological family and whose mother drank or did drugs when the children were in utero and couldn't care for them once they were born.

    The logic doesn't follow that not killing children means that their reluctant parents will be forced to raise them inadequately themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't know about the States, but in Canada there are many, many people waiting to adopt children. I know a number of both single people and couples who have been waiting for years and are even willing to take an older child. I also know more than one family who has adopted 3-4 children who are from the same biological family and whose mother drank or did drugs when the children were in utero and couldn't care for them once they were born.

    The logic doesn't follow that not killing children means that their reluctant parents will be forced to raise them inadequately themselves.
    Maybe we should then send all those children to Canada.

    In the States, it's very expensive to adopt -- if you have insurance, you can give birth to your own children very cheaply, sometimes entirely covered, but if you want to adopt, you will typically be spending $20-25K. And then you have to navigate all the laws, worry about birth parents coming back and trying to take your children in court if you happen to miss something.

    You can be a foster parent; but that system can be abused by foster parents who do the minimal possible in order to receive government money to raise those kids, and/or have your kids taken away if the birth parents / family wants them back even if it's not the best situation for them (we seem to give a high precedence to birth parents in our country); and you're also typically dealing with foster kids who have been bounced around so much that by the time they're in their teens they don't have a sense of connection to others and/or good self-discipline and structure. Placing kids outside of race can be difficult as well. It's a mess.

    My most hands-on experience was watching one of my best friends take care of a young black boy for two years or so and viewing him as his son; the boy's baby sister (fostered by another set of parents) was able to be adopted, but the parents decided to take their son back and the state complied. My friend had raised him from literally a drooling illiterate immature mess to someone who could focus, live within some structure, communicate with words, and interact with others... and instead the boy was sent back to that dead-end existence due to rules and declined back into his former state. Quickly enough both parents bailed on the kid again and he was living with his grandmother. It was devastating to see; and it not only was awful for the boy, but it dissuades people like my friend from wanting to get involved because it will rip their heart out.

    I think there is a huge disconnect here in the States where we all argue ideology without wanting to do the follow through, because of "freedom of speech." There's no cost. Just slap some rules on things to stop what some consider the overt evil, but pretty much it leaves the cost of one person's morality on another person's shoulders... and usually someone far less equipped to deal. (Maybe that's the part that bothers me the most: People impose their morality at no cost to themselves but high cost to others. Typically, if you want to hold a particular standard, you need to bear the burden for it as well.)

    Recent restrictions in Texas are a notable case in point.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    dont have unprotected sex if you cant raise a child. Its irresponsible @Jennifer Would you want to be that unborn baby that was conceived on some drunk night, who your mom didn't want so she simply went to a clinic and killed you? Bottom line is if your mature enough to have unprotected sex, you're mature enough to raise a child. If you cant afford raising one, then you should've thought about that and acted more responsibly. But once you made the mistake, accept it like a healthy adult, and be grateful that they're are programs in America that can help you out. And there's always putting it up for adoption to a family who yearns for what you were so ready to destroy.


    @prplchknz using words like 'brainwashed', doesn't help prove your point any further. I explained my beliefs, and they are based on logic, compassion, morals and an inner sense of right and wrong. I'm still waiting to see the reasoning behind your beliefs though. You should learn that its ok to disagree with other people. Everyone has different opinions, and ours are clearly different. Healthy debate is always good, but statements like 'you aren't high enough to know the truth', and going on about army conspiracy theories and whatnot is not going to make anyone with differing opinions listen and respect yours. Your devaluing it.

    Also that hug is still available

  9. #9
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozones View Post
    dont have unprotected sex if you cant raise a child. Its irresponsible @Jennifer Would you want to be that unborn baby that was conceived on some drunk night, who your mom didn't want so she simply went to a clinic and killed you? Bottom line is if your mature enough to have unprotected sex, you're mature enough to raise a child. If you cant afford raising one, then you should've thought about that and acted more responsibly. But once you made the mistake, accept it, and be grateful that they're are programs in America that can help you out.


    @prplchknz using words like 'brainwashed', doesn't help prove your point any further. I explained my beliefs, and they are based on logic, compassion, morals and an inner sense of right and wrong. I'm still waiting to see the reasoning behind your beliefs though. You should learn that its ok to disagree with other people. Everyone has different opinions, and ours are clearly different. Healthy debate is always good, but statements like 'you aren't high enough to know the truth', and going on about army conspiracy theories and whatnot is not going to make anyone listen and respect your opinion.

    Also that hug is still available
    i meant on the political ladder. And I actually don't have unprotected sex, this thread isn't about me.And I have no problem with disagrement. Because this country is becoming a 3rd world country and people are beginning to pull away from the republican party, No one likes to lose power, so they'll do whatever is necessary to maintain it. even if it means over throwing the current system, which they're in the process of doing now
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #10
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe we should then send all those children to Canada.

    In the States, it's very expensive to adopt -- if you have insurance, you can give birth to your own children very cheaply, sometimes entirely covered, but if you want to adopt, you will typically be spending $20-25K. And then you have to navigate all the laws, worry about birth parents coming back and trying to take your children in court if you happen to miss something.

    You can be a foster parent; but that system can be abused by foster parents who do the minimal possible in order to receive government money to raise those kids, and/or have your kids taken away if the birth parents / family wants them back even if it's not the best situation for them (we seem to give a high precedence to birth parents in our country); and you're also typically dealing with foster kids who have been bounced around so much that by the time they're in their teens they don't have a sense of connection to others and/or good self-discipline and structure. Placing kids outside of race can be difficult as well. It's a mess.

    My most hands-on experience was watching one of my best friends take care of a young black boy for two years or so and viewing him as his son; the boy's baby sister (fostered by another set of parents) was able to be adopted, but the parents decided to take their son back and the state complied. My friend had raised him from literally a drooling illiterate immature mess to someone who could focus, live within some structure, communicate with words, and interact with others... and instead the boy was sent back to that dead-end existence due to rules and declined back into his former state. Quickly enough both parents bailed on the kid again and he was living with his grandmother. It was devastating to see; and it not only was awful for the boy, but it dissuades people like my friend from wanting to get involved because it will rip their heart out.

    I think there is a huge disconnect here in the States where we all argue ideology without wanting to do the follow through, because of "freedom of speech." There's no cost. Just slap some rules on things to stop what some consider the overt evil, but pretty much it leaves the cost of one person's morality on another person's shoulders... and usually someone far less equipped to deal. (Maybe that's the part that bothers me the most: People impose their morality at no cost to themselves but high cost to others. Typically, if you want to hold a particular standard, you need to bear the burden for it as well.)

    Recent restrictions in Texas are a notable case in point.
    That's interesting - I hadn't realized that adoption within country costs that much there. I know that it is like that for us out of country, and within country there is certainly a lot of red tape for adopting, which is very frustrating. During the 60s, there was a big push for Native kids to be adopted by white families and in many cases, it was a failed experiment. If you are a single person, it is much more difficult to adopt, and you are more likely to only have the chance of adopting an older child who has already been in multiple foster homes and cannot attach well emotionally. Certainly, the foster care system is very poorly run and in many cases, children are taken away from the only stability they have experienced as soon as their parent is doing slightly better and many children's lives are endangered or ended by incompetent placements. There is very little communication between social workers and frequently case loads are shifted around, so there is little continuity and many children slip between the cracks.

    To me, this seems then like efforts need to be put into addressing the needs of the people having children when they are unprepared, educating the whole population regarding options out there and also regarding their choices and impact on fetal health, and streamlining the adoption process, as well as addressing the very serious systemic problems within the foster care system. From what I saw during my time on the reserve, it was obvious that many people were having children at young ages because they saw no other possibilities in their future, and children were a by product of the relationships they were getting into because their own families were unable to provide for their emotional needs. If people did choose to leave the environment they grew up in where a high percentage of the population were dealing with substance abuse issues, violence, political corruption, and limited job opportunities, they did not have the help they needed to get an education or find work and have the adequate emotional support needed to make it elsewhere, so many returned to a bad situation, or were in a position of needing to be involved in gangs or prostitution elsewhere to survive.

    It seems to me that efforts towards putting supports in place to help people change their situation, provide them with strong people in their lives and give them the skills needed to succeed economically are much lower on the list of priorities and that people on both sides of the debate need to put their money where their mouth is. Penalizing the child themselves for being conceived by incompetent people just because we have the technology to terminate their lives without it being considered a legal murder (even though if they survived the procedure, killing them would be or if they were born prematurely, it would be) is starting at the wrong end of the problem. Expense/non-viability of the current adoption system is also just not an acceptable reason for condoning the termination of a human life.

    Great social change has been effected in the last decades. Things that once were not even questioned (domestic violence, racism, discrimination, women's rights) are now at least being discussed and there are more options out there than there once were for people in society who were traditionally marginalized and at risk. Public opinions are evolving over time. By providing abortions readily as a way to address the problem of people not caring for their children is addressing the symptoms of a much bigger problem in a very short term kind of way that puts women's physical and emotional health at risk, taxes the health care system, affects the larger society negatively, and penalizes the victim. Instead, we need to look at the root of the real problem and start by addressing it there.

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