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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I can understand where you are coming from. Your logic stems from your belief that a woman does not have a right to choose. Or, at least, you really don't like it. LOL. So everything about your points make sense when coming from that initial chain of thought.

    In my opinion, a pregnant woman is the only one who gets to decide whether a pregnancy is wanted or not, not a third party.
    Would you forgive someone who came along with a pair of scissors and snipped your testicles off because "Oh, well...I wanted a vasectomy anyway." (?)
    That's a glib reading of a nuanced discussion and with a tortured analogy to boot. I never argued that women shouldn't have choice. In fact, I took great pains to point out that I am in favor of legalized abortion. I'm talking about shared points of reference and the fact that until logical inconsistencies in both pro-life and pro-choice arguments are ironed out, and we collectively agree on a few important definitions, any debate on the topic is pointless. I seem to have been right.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  2. #182
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    what does the law state wrt to people who opt to save theor own life or even opt not to undergo excruciating pain and months of revalidation in order to save another persons life? Are they charged with manslaughter?

    Coz being forced to carry a baby to term is an aweful lot like that for women, consequence-wise. You lose a year of your life due to someone else and youre never quite the same.

    I know there is a stigma as coward for those that choose to save themselves from harm in a crisis over saving someone else but i do believe we as a society understand that kind of selfpreservation in the end.

    It is ultimately their decision since they are the ones in that situation. And it is also generally underlined in those cases that people who havent been in that situation would be best not to judge too harshly as there is no way to know what you really would do yourself. This imho is even doubly true for those that get to theorize on the sidelines *knowing * they ll never have to make that call anyways.



    ***********
    @EffEmDoubleyou

    I get that you are pro-choice, but I find your opinion on the 'It's my body' argument rather baffling.

    Especially, considering that your argument holds the very basis for this argument as well.

    For sure, we were endowed with the reproductive responsibility. As such, I've been responsible, worried, accountable and in charge of my own body on that regard since I started bleeding - since I was 13. I have used the half-assed, works only 95-99% of the time-medication and tools that induce nausea, pain, bloating, and god knows what else along with worry since they're not fool proof and come with ifs and buts ever since that time, in attempt to have *some* control over it.

    Society and biology both tells us that we women are the ones to go through that worry, and shoulder that burden and responsibility, as it affects directly us. And yes, it aint fair. It's one of the things I honestly despise having to deal with every damned day of my life, just coz I'm a woman.

    But you know what? You're right, it is my body and my burden. And I do the job that I never asked for.

    However. Along with all that burden, stress, accountability and responsibility Im going to DEMAND the authority and power that goes with it. I'm sorry, this IS my body. And if all those half-assed painful, uncomfortable and stressful half-measures that we have at our disposal today are going to fail, then I will be the ONLY one qualified wrt to what to do next. Nobody gets to at that point step in and go 'sorry, this is out of your hands now'

    If I'm going to have the responsibility, you owe me the authority that goes with it. In this case, I'm the expert, and you'll have to trust that I know what's best for me, my body and my unborn fetus - and accept that this decision is really not anyone else's to make. It is never an easy one either, as Nature works hard to not only get us pregnant, but also make us love, cherish and instinctively protect the potential we carry within.

    As for your opinion and suggestions, I very much value them, I appreciate your input but since you are *male*, they are honestly irrelevant (the obvious exception here is the man who Ive shared a life with and whose baby it would be). Even another womans opinion is ultimately irrelevant, though perhaps more valuable as she has more expertise to speak from due to the sheer fact of having a uterus - and definitely more so if she has actually been in that situation of that uterus being rented out without her intent.

    In the end though, it comes down to me.

    It always has.
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  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As for your opinion and suggestions, I very much value them, I appreciate your input but since you are *male*, they are honestly irrelevant.
    I'll stop wasting my breath then.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  4. #184
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I'll stop wasting my breath then.


    You're offended that your opinions are irrelevant but you don't see how telling us our choice in what happens to our body is...100 times worse?

    This isn't meant in an offensive way - it's just the way things are. We don't like it any more than you do, trust me. But until science comes up with a 100% foolproof way of regulating human pregnancies, that's the way it is, unfortunately.
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  5. #185
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're offended that your opinions are irrelevant
    I hope that you understand that your opinion on issues like male circumcision and selective service are irrelevant as well. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #186
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I think that abortion is wrong, I think it's a shameful tragedy, and I think it's a stain on humanity that we don't have the self-control to make the point moot. I find it obscene that people talk about pregnancy as if it's something that "happened to them" instead of something they did because they attempted to game a process nature designed for reproduction and failed. I hate that adoption is not a choice more people make.
    yes, and to provide an example... I have a similarly visceral negative response to the argument that the fetus is a "parasite." Like, wtf?

    But, having said all that, I think it should be legal. ... many of the people that seek it are powerless people who aren't the sole architects of their position in life. I also think it should be legal because I find the arguments on both sides to be muddled and inconclusive, and until that is not the case, rights should not be abridged.

    However, I find some of the arguments in favor of legal abortion to be unconvincing, primarily the "my body my choice" argument. That argument works for many topics, but not this one. Obviously this is reliant on one's position as to when life begins, but when you are pregnant, there are two bodies. It's not fair that only women bear children, but biology doesn't make political decisions and doesn't hew to legislation. It bothers me that one can ping-pong back and forth as to whether a fetus is a person depending on the topic at hand. Abortion is okay because a fetus is just a lump of cells, but smoking while pregnant isn't okay because you're harming the baby. Abortion is okay because a fetus is just a lump of cells, but if you kill a pregnant woman, you are charged with two murders. I understand that the counter to this is "those babies were wanted". However, you can't determine whether a fetus is a person based on how much that fetus is loved. It either is or is not a biological person. If it is, then you must protect it. And if it is not, then you cannot force people to recognize it. This, to me, is the crux of the debate, and why this is such a fucked topic whenever it's brought up.

    So I guess I'm a self-loathing pro-choicer. Ugh.

    I share those same concerns. There are some huge contradictions involved from both ends, which I started to address earlier. It seems like the definition of the fetus changes based on convenience.

    In the end, I find pro-choice (or, more accurate, "abortion allowable") to be the most palatable "general" position because despite its own flaws at least it permits the most flexibility in finding a resolution to those multi-faceted conflicts (idealism of what is preferable, vs reality / practical constraints of the situation) for each particular person according to their needs, while I think the pro-life (or rather "abortion prohibited") position tries to shoehorn everyone into the same cramped space and thus creates more problems for some rather than less.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #187
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I hope that you understand that your opinion on issues like male circumcision and selective service are irrelevant as well. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.
    Of course. I have no qualms about my inability to understand what typical male issues must be like. Im likely to inquire and gather personal anecdotes from men in order to gain some measure of understanding, and perhaps offer insights based on those if asked for them but that's about it. In fact, the first time I realised just how much I didn't understand men was when I realised just how different their sex drive worked from ours - after gathering several of those anecdotes. Considering Ive made a hobby out of collecting such anecdotes since I was 17 and the realisation only hit me at 25, it made me quite humbled in how little I truly understood of what the male experience must be like - and very sad that I'd never get a chance to actually know.

    ****
    Fwiw, though I may never know for certain till I face the situation - I don't think I'dve ever used the option of abortion.. But it is comforting to know that that is
    something that I truly get to decide - for the good of both me and my baby. In fact, seeing it as *my* baby instead of an unwanted intruder and coming to terms with having a baby is highly facilitated by not being backed into a corner and retaining my autonomy. It makes me want to step up and do the right thing - as it is my decision and *I* will have to live with it.

    @Jennifer Parasite may be a harsh term and I agree it is no way to describe a baby normally, but technically speaking, the definition of a parasite states that the relationship benefits the one while it burdens the others. I only used it to point out the significant cost to the woman's body that she normally would gladly go through for the sake of her child during a wanted pregnancy. In fact, I've heard pregnant women actually describe the experience of pregnancy as being similar to what it must be like to be invaded by an alien parasite as your body no longer is your own and changes into something you do not recognise, or so Im told.
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  8. #188
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Of course. I have no qualms about my inability to understand what typical male issues must be like. Im likely to inquire and gather personal anecdotes from men in order to gain some measure of understanding, and perhaps offer insights based on those if asked for them but that's about it. In fact, the first time I realised just how much I didn't understand men was when I realised just how different their sex drive worked from ours - after gathering several of those anecdotes. Considering Ive made a hobby out of collecting such anecdotes since I was 17 and the realisation only hit me at 25, it made me quite humbled in how little I truly understood of what the male experience must be like - and very sad that I'd never get a chance to actually know.
    That's why I'm hoping that one of these days Dennis Prager (ENTJ 1w2 IMHO) will finally get around to finishing his book explaining typical male sexuality to women. The tentative title is Your Husband is Not A Pervert.
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  9. #189
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Ah yes, this is definitely what a sentient human child looks like.
    Ultrasound pictures in vivo show a living human being.

    So it looks like the Catholic Church was right about abortion.

  10. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post


    You're offended that your opinions are irrelevant but you don't see how telling us our choice in what happens to our body is...100 times worse?

    This isn't meant in an offensive way - it's just the way things are. We don't like it any more than you do, trust me. But until science comes up with a 100% foolproof way of regulating human pregnancies, that's the way it is, unfortunately.
    You're obtuse.

    Do you realize the Pandora's Box you open when you insinuate that education can never make up for personal experience when forming an opinion? I find it impossible that you do.

    And YET AGAIN, in regard to the bolded, let me state for reading comprehension-impaired posters that I am in favor of legalized abortion. I simply find the debate to be flawed and pointless when both sides are using inconsistent definitions. As has been demonstrated. Again.

    I'm done here.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

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