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  1. #161
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    Well, then. Every single discussion on abortion ends up becoming a terrible mess. No surprise there.

    Even one that starts by positing an awesome oddball theory that a secret program is using unwanted babies as soldiers to take over the country and sell it off.

    (I laughed as usual, @prplchknz)
    it's the only theory that makes a modicum of sense.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #162
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I know some Christians are quite concerned about the advance of Islam, and they want to balance things out on the Christian side.

    Unwanted western babies could help the cause.

    /didn't read thread

    Sensitive discussions are rarely fruitful. Biased arguments everywhere.


  3. #163
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm talking about the argument actually used to justify one's view of the fetus as a human life.
    There is no single argument used to justify any position on abortion, or even to justify if and why an organic life form of any age has rights of any kind....and I think the crux of the debate is whether an organic being that is already technically regarded as 'human life' by scientific standards has rights as a person or individual, and when and under what criteria 'individual' or 'human' rights begin. These questions are further complicated by genuine and competing concerns over conflicting rights or interests (the right not to be forced to die for the sake of another individual, the right not to be forced into activities wherein pregnancy is a risk, the physical liberty of women versus legal and moral obligations to offspring, the capacity of women to have a reasonably secure method of control over getting pregnant, etc.), and people generally considered to be on the same side of the issue balance these concerns and priorities differently.

    For instance, on the pro-choice side, there is agreement that all of the latter concerns should take precedence over the rights of a fetus up to some point, but up to different stages of pregnancy based on differing conceptions of when, why, and if rights connected to human life or personhood begin, and whether the rights of unborn human life can ever be more important than the rights and interests of the woman involved (the legalization thru nine months could, for instance, be justified on a religious 'breath of life' basis, or by simply maintaining that the unborn lacks priority for various other legal, ethical, or moral reasons regardless of its technical humanity or personhood). And on the pro-life side, people may disagree over whether human life begins at conception or fertilization, and whether any of the other concerns can ever take priority over the life of a fetus after that point, which again results in various positions within the broad spectrum. For instance, there are the people who agree with your reasoning (that would be that 10%), others who believe that one should not be morally obligated to die for another or that it would be unjust to be forced to have a baby as the result of forced sex, and others who believe that securing reasonable personal control over contraception is important enough (in light of the consequences to human rights and welfare otherwise) to trade off the right to life before conception, or the small but existent risk of abortion for a short time afterwards (hence support for the birth control and morning after pills, as opposed to just physical contraceptives).

    In short, the whole issue is a moral and ethical dilemma with a wide variance in response, and most are emotionally burdened at some level by the necessary moral, ethical, and philosophical tradeoffs that must be made when determining such things; few people on either side of the debate are actually at the absolutist extremes caricatured by the other side.

  4. #164
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    Anyone ever notice that the majority of pro lifers are men? I've always found that interesting. I wonder why that is?
    There is no significant difference between the sexes on this issue: http://www.gallup.com/poll/162548/am...ion-views.aspx

  5. #165
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK258 View Post
    Anyone ever notice that the majority of pro lifers are men? I've always found that interesting. I wonder why that is?
    maybe you just need to go to church more?

    I know many pro-life women, but they're all typically basing it on their religious values.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think it's argued as a case of self-defense. The problem with that, to me, is that there is no intent to harm on the part of the baby/fetus.
    Interesting... never ever really considered it as a "self-defense" case.

    So if someone appears to be going to kill you on accident, is it acceptable to use deadly force if that is the only way to stop them?
    If a born child and a fetus are the same morally, and a mother is likely to not kill her own offspring even when child is threatening her physical well-being (dad might, but that's a male instinct -- moms seem far less likely), then what in those people's minds differentiates enough to say killing the fetus (which is equivalent to a born child) is now acceptable?

    That's the inconsistency that confuses me and why I see religious people basing their argument on the fetus being the equivalent of a human child as "hedging" if they try to exclude certain conditions.

    The "mom was raped" thing has a little bit different overtones to it, but it's the same thing -- if the fetus is morally the same as a child growing up outside the womb, to be consistent, just being the product of a rape should have no bearing, as that's not the fetus' fault.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #166
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Interesting... never ever really considered it as a "self-defense" case.



    If a born child and a fetus are the same morally, and a mother is likely to not kill her own offspring even when child is threatening her physical well-being (dad might, but that's a male instinct -- moms seem far less likely), then what in those people's minds differentiates enough to say killing the fetus (which is equivalent to a born child) is now acceptable?

    That's the inconsistency that confuses me and why I see religious people basing their argument on the fetus being the equivalent of a human child as "hedging" if they try to exclude certain conditions.

    The "mom was raped" thing has a little bit different overtones to it, but it's the same thing -- if the fetus is morally the same as a child growing up outside the womb, to be consistent, just being the product of a rape should have no bearing, as that's not the fetus' fault.
    Pretty much. To my mind, it is infanticide, but humans are animals and sometimes animals kill (and eat) their young. Usually under extremely stressful conditions. That's why I'm in favor of addressing the stressors.

    It sounds terrible and I probably never should have taken that anthropology class, but it seems like it hasn't always and in all cases been a bug, though I wouldn't go so far as to call it a feature, either.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #167
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    If abortion is murder, I wonder whether there has ever been a female serial killer who specialized in killing her own unborn children. Seems like a nice loophole for women with this kind of urge.

  8. #168
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Pretty much. To my mind, it is infanticide, but humans are animals and sometimes animals kill (and eat) their young. Usually under extremely stressful conditions. That's why I'm in favor of addressing the stressors.

    It sounds terrible and I probably never should have taken that anthropology class, but it seems like it hasn't always and in all cases been a bug, though I wouldn't go so far as to call it a feature, either.
    Not sure I'm grasping the last paragraph, but do you mean the condition of killing/eating one's young being a survival mechanism of some kind (meant to serve a purpose) versus a deficiency/aberration?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #169
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Not sure I'm grasping the last paragraph, but do you mean the condition of killing/eating one's young being a survival mechanism of some kind (meant to serve a purpose) versus a deficiency/aberration?
    Yep. If our purpose is to perpetuate our own genetic lines, it's more advantageous for a female of breeding age to survive than for her to endanger herself for a single young, who would not survive without her anyway and whose chances of survival would have been iffy in the first place, given infant/child mortality for most of human history.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #170
    Member JustAMind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    If abortion is murder, I wonder whether there has ever been a female serial killer who specialized in killing her own unborn children. Seems like a nice loophole for women with this kind of urge.
    what a perverse thought, I like that

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