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  1. #141
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     In my experience, almost all pro-life people are okay with abortion in cases where the mother's life is in danger due to complications. Denying the mother an abortion and getting her killed as a result wouldn't really be pro-life.[/QUOTE]
    exactly

  2. #142
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    [QUOTE=Nicodemus;2247815]Strange as it may sound, Ozones has convinced me.



  3. #143
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozones View Post
    @cafe I've thought long and hard and have come to the conclusion that its all about Walmart these days. Who are you if you don't shop there like I don't even know
    I go there maybe a handful of times a year, but I try to avoid it. It's generally an unpleasant place to shop and they treat their employees like shit. I know almost every place treats their employees that way, but Walmart is the biggest and the nastiest of the bunch.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I go there maybe a handful of times a year, but I try to avoid it. It's generally an unpleasant place to shop and they treat their employees like shit. I know almost every place treats their employees that way, but Walmart is the biggest and the nastiest of the bunch.
    So you care about supermarkets' treating their employees like shit and I care about mothers' killing their babies. Were both good people cafe

  5. #145
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    if the person is being treated like shit and is being paid less than a living wage, gets pregnant out of wed lock, keeping in mind foster care and the chance of being adopted in this country is abysmal, she should still have the child? Because she's gonna have to get 3 jobs minimum and never be there for her child, and what if she doesn't have family to help out. I just think in an ideal world people would be paid at least a paying wage and there would be no need for abortion, but as it is now, it's not black and white when it comes to abortion
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    if the person is being treated like shit and is being paid less than a living wage, gets pregnant out of wed lock, keeping in mind foster care and the chance of being adopted in this country is abysmal, she should still have the child? Because she's gonna have to get 3 jobs minimum and never be there for her child, and what if she doesn't have family to help out. I just think in an ideal world people would be paid at least a paying wage and there would be no need for abortion, but as it is now, it's not black and white when it comes to abortion
    This. So much and exactly this. IMO, Walmart paying a living wage would be so much more pro-life than overturning Roe V Wade.
    Last edited by cafe; 03-12-2014 at 10:16 PM.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #147
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jennifer;2247864]I'm not sure who is running the public dialogue then, since I hear more and more extreme views popping up all the time.

    Why are people suddenly wimping out and saying (tacitly) that the mother's life is more important?
    QUOTE]

    You mean like supporting the right to an abortion throughout the pregnancy? The number of people who think abortion should be illegal in cases where the woman's life is in danger is generally measured at about 10%, which to my anecdotal memory is slightly lower than that first segment of the population (where such distinctions are included in the polls).

    They're not; they're saying that nobody should be legally obligated to die in place of another. As for other exceptions, allowances are made (and debated) for balancing the protection of human life with competing concerns regarding beliefs on liberty and justice all the time; people's general and situational prioritization differ, along with their evaluations of when human life begins and the minimal criteria for being eligible for rights protections.

    Edit: I screwed up the quote, could one of the editors fix that?

  8. #148
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    You mean like supporting the right to an abortion throughout the pregnancy? The number of people who think abortion should be illegal in cases where the woman's life is in danger is generally measured at about 10%, which to my anecdotal memory is slightly lower than that first segment of the population (where such distinctions are included in the polls).

    They're not; they're saying that nobody should be legally obligated to die in place of another.
    I'm not talking the "legal" end of things here, nor am I asking what percentage of people think abortion should be illegal in this situation.

    I'm talking about the argument actually used to justify one's view of the fetus as a human life. The argument is that the fetus is a human being, so therefore it should not be killed. In this case, though, even if you think the mother's life is in jeopardy, you're still murdering another human being by killing the fetus. The reason "why" doesn't matter. According to the pro-life argument, you are still murdering a baby.

    So I'm asking why the discrepancy in values, from a human life / moral perspective?

    When I see that shift in someone's stance, I do feel like they are hedging. Either it's a human life to be preserved or not; if it's allowable to kill it to save a mother (versus risking killing the mother to potentially save the baby), then now there are grounds for when one human life could be justified as more important or taking precedent over another.

    It's like as long as the mother is healthy, then everything is considered is human life and can't be harmed; if the mother is at risk, however, then it's okay to murder the baby. Which is it, or is there some argument that makes this make sense?

    People are also very quick to point out God's sovereignty .... until we get into a matter of life vs death... and suddenly human beings are pulling the plug. How do we reconcile that as well?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #149
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    We must ban masturbation and sodomy. Ejaculation outside the womb is the willful destruction of a potential human life.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #150
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not talking the "legal" end of things here, nor am I asking what percentage of people think abortion should be illegal in this situation.

    I'm talking about the argument actually used to justify one's view of the fetus as a human life. The argument is that the fetus is a human being, so therefore it should not be killed. In this case, though, even if you think the mother's life is in jeopardy, you're still murdering another human being by killing the fetus. The reason "why" doesn't matter. According to the pro-life argument, you are still murdering a baby.

    So I'm asking why the discrepancy in values, from a human life / moral perspective?

    When I see that shift in someone's stance, I do feel like they are hedging. Either it's a human life to be preserved or not; if it's allowable to kill it to save a mother (versus risking killing the mother to potentially save the baby), then now there are grounds for when one human life could be justified as more important or taking precedent over another.

    It's like as long as the mother is healthy, then everything is considered is human life and can't be harmed; if the mother is at risk, however, then it's okay to murder the baby. Which is it, or is there some argument that makes this make sense?

    People are also very quick to point out God's sovereignty .... until we get into a matter of life vs death... and suddenly human beings are pulling the plug. How do we reconcile that as well?
    I think it's argued as a case of self-defense. The problem with that, to me, is that there is no intent to harm on the part of the baby/fetus.

    So if someone appears to be going to kill you on accident, is it acceptable to use deadly force if that is the only way to stop them?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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