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  1. #111
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    @cafe my head hurts and im going out now. Ill get back to you on that asap

  2. #112
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    this thread made me think of:
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #113
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozones View Post
    And thanks for the clarification. Sorry @Coriolis i misread in haste. But of course your not an insult by existing. Thats my whole point. Every life has so much value and potential that the concept of abortion just kills me (no pun intended)
    Read in haste, jump to conclusions at leisure. Yes, my comment was about the girl who ended up with an unwanted pregnancy due to lack of guidance and even exploitation by the adults in her life. I know nothing of her birth circumstances, but do know that unwed mothers (and fathers) are often the children of the same. So, preventing unwanted and premature pregnancy in one generation has far reaching consequences into the next; as does failure to do the same.

    Not everyone has the luxury of putting ideology over the day to day necessities of life. Moreover, your question about what any of us are actually doing about these problems seems to presuppose that we do no more than discuss on forums like this. Well, that's really all we can do here. I know I am not the only one, however, who puts my resources where my mouth is through advocacy, donations, and volunteering. If you really want the answer to a question like this, just ask.

    Finally, the idea of fundamental respect for women is central to this discussion. As long as significant parts of the population are willing to see women primarily as childbearing vessels, we will be unable to agree on an effective solution to the problem of unintended pregnancy.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #114
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    I wonder if Garrett Hardin is pro-choice considering his essay Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor. In the essay, Hardin makes some points that the reason the poor cannot climb aboard his metaphorical "lifeboat" (which is the personification of a happy, fulfilling life and survival) due to the fact that the birth rate among the poor (taken from analysis of poorer nation's birth rates compared to those of richer nations) is causing a faster dissipation of their own resources. Compared to nations like Germany (whose death rate actually exceeds its birth rate and who has one of the most stable economies in Europe), poorer third-world nations are reproducing exponentially more yet at the same time possess far fewer resources than richer nations, creating a stark gap between the standard of living of the wealthy in those nations and of the poor. In the United States, it might stand to reason that the eventual overpopulation among the middle and lower classes along with the future disappearance of materials such as petroleum (with some of the very giants that control the market fighting any attempt to end our petroleum addiction) will lead to a harsh divide that will completely destroy the social mobility we pride ourselves in as a more capitalistic nation. Perhaps allowing a trimming of the population would allow us to delay the inevitable exhaustion of our resources or allow us more time to search for more efficient, renewable resources, and what better way to alleviate that through allowing mothers who do not wish to bear child to not?

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I wonder if Garrett Hardin is pro-choice considering his essay Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor. In the essay, Hardin makes some points that the reason the poor cannot climb aboard his metaphorical "lifeboat" (which is the personification of a happy, fulfilling life and survival) due to the fact that the birth rate among the poor (taken from analysis of poorer nation's birth rates compared to those of richer nations) is causing a faster dissipation of their own resources. Compared to nations like Germany (whose death rate actually exceeds its birth rate and who has one of the most stable economies in Europe), poorer third-world nations are reproducing exponentially more yet at the same time possess far fewer resources than richer nations, creating a stark gap between the standard of living of the wealthy in those nations and of the poor. In the United States, it might stand to reason that the eventual overpopulation among the middle and lower classes along with the future disappearance of materials such as petroleum (with some of the very giants that control the market fighting any attempt to end our petroleum addiction) will lead to a harsh divide that will completely destroy the social mobility we pride ourselves in as a more capitalistic nation. Perhaps allowing a trimming of the population would allow us to delay the inevitable exhaustion of our resources or allow us more time to search for more efficient, renewable resources, and what better way to alleviate that through allowing mothers who do not wish to bear child to not?
    ...Kill two birds with one stone: dissolve the government. This will do 2 things:

    1) The population will decrease

    2) You'll basically be able to do whatever you want...

  6. #116
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    ...Kill two birds with one stone: dissolve the government. This will do 2 things:

    1) The population will decrease

    2) You'll basically be able to do whatever you want...
    Agreed, but then this will all just start again from its very ruins. We, as a race, desire power, and what better way to ensure that than claiming some authority over others? (Plus, what arises from the metaphorical ashes of the phoenix of civilization would be more brutish than the Democracy we treasure in society today)

    Resource depletion would also slow, due to the probable scenario that no one will want to be on the assembly line or working for that matter (for any large conglomerate, self-sufficiency would arise again in the form of an agrarian society most likely).

  7. #117
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    I think both pro-life arguments and pro-choice arguments are based on arbitrary nuclei of reasoning. It's all about where human life begins and how non-human life possesses the potential to spring into something like you or I. These concepts are so broad and flexible that by, for instance, condemning the destruction of something with potential (like a zygote), you must also condemn male masturbation and various forms of preventative birth control. But by allowing the death of a zygote, you sanction a form of human death. Sure, it hasn't been cultured by society, nor has it made a contribution to the world by its own accord, but in that respect it's no different from a newborn. It's formed by the same DNA. In a sense, you could even say that a zygote is more human than you and I, because it hasn't been corrupted by learned behavior, nor has it experienced loss.

    The only reason I like that abortion clinics are legal is because the alternative would be to give some people no other option than to practice homemade abortions. By allowing people a choice in the eyes of a trained professional, you reduce the likelihood of wire hangar shit and dumpster babies. You don't drive people into desperation.

    That said, I think adoption is a preferable alternative to abortion if it can be done.

    Regarding the OP, and how it specifically relates to the rising trend in secular arguments against abortion - even if you remove religion, you're left with the human element. People will likely feel emotional identification with fetuses like many people feel emotional identification with animals and inanimate objects. Not all secularists are so engrossed by the looming threat of overpopulation that they relish abortion and birth control. That sort of attitude seems specifically reserved for those who retort to anything relating to religious, neoconservative values. Which means that we're seeing a decline in those sorts of conflicts, which means that they're merging and exploring different venues of conflict.

  8. #118
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    The only reason I like that abortion clinics are legal is because the alternative would be to give some people no other option than to practice homemade abortions. By allowing people a choice in the eyes of a trained professional, you reduce the likelihood of wire hangar shit and dumpster babies. You don't drive people into desperation.
    It is definitely a hierarchy of evils (to parallel the phrase "lesser of two evils", not to characterize any of the options as inherently evil). The ideal solution is for people who don't want children to be able to avoid that safely and reliably. Once that option is gone, whether through error, compulsion, or simple carelessness, the options get more difficult, with more serious collateral damage. Making abortion illegal or otherwise inaccessible just pushes women down the option ladder to the point where two lives may be lost instead of one. Indeed, history is filled with women who have committed suicide rather than continue with a crisis pregnancy.

    Legally, the only question is who gets to choose how far down the hierarchy to go. It makes no sense to put that decision in the hands of anyone other than the affected woman.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #119
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    Pro-life cause I think its wrong, not religious either btw. However unwanted child army now adds to my motivation.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is definitely a hierarchy of evils (to parallel the phrase "lesser of two evils", not to characterize any of the options as inherently evil). The ideal solution is for people who don't want children to be able to avoid that safely and reliably. Once that option is gone, whether through error, compulsion, or simple carelessness, the options get more difficult, with more serious collateral damage. Making abortion illegal or otherwise inaccessible just pushes women down the option ladder to the point where two lives may be lost instead of one. Indeed, history is filled with women who have committed suicide rather than continue with a crisis pregnancy.

    Legally, the only question is who gets to choose how far down the hierarchy to go. It makes no sense to put that decision in the hands of anyone other than the affected woman.
    How is it, then, that so many pro-lifers assert a believe in free will?

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