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  1. #21
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Even so called belief-systems and ideologies operating under a single name vary substantially. You have all kinds of christians, even more kinds of muslims, and god only knows how many different shades of conservatism and liberalism. More to the point, I think the problem you present is not a problem at all. Democracy has two built-in ideological ideas: freedom and equality for all. That, I think, is foundation enough.
    Didn't work in iraq. Didn't work in the weimar republic, didn't work in soviet russia. Isn't working in turkey, and definitely not syria. Isn't working in Russia. And a shitload of other countries. Because of competing belief-systems/ideologies/even ethno-cultural and ethno-political loyalities. US is definitely not going to be free of that... considering its history.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  2. #22
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    I'm not trying to codify ideology. All i'm saying is that.... belief-systems compete... that's all. Sometimes they fuck up the entire system. And society itself has a pervasive ideology, even though the government constitution doesn't represent it. And ideologies generally don't work together. The christian right-wing was very influental until very recently. And i hardly doubt they believed in the principles of the US, if they thought they had half the chance to cease power. Liberal democracy is the ideology of all and none.
    Then I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting. It sounds like you want to outlaw ideologies like Christianity and Nazism.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #23
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Then I'm sure exactly what you're suggesting. It sounds like you want to outlaw ideologies like Christianity and Nazism.
    Naw... that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying, be prepared that liberal-democracies become destroyed. Infact the US itself pretty much has nullified any political representation that isn't organized along traditional lines. Is there going to be a change to the two party system, in the US in the future?
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  4. #24
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Didn't work in iraq. Didn't work in the weimar republic, didn't work in soviet russia. Isn't working in turkey, and definitely not syria. Isn't working in Russia. And a shitload of other countries. Because of competing belief-systems/ideologies/even ethno-cultural and ethno-political loyalities. US is definitely not going to be free of that... considering its history.
    Because these democracies did not evolve 'naturally'. I concede that the people have to want it to make it work. But democracy is up and running today in Germany, the very same place it so famously failed in the 1920's.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Naw... that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying, be prepared that liberal-democracies become destroyed. Infact the US itself pretty much has nullified any political representation that isn't organized along traditional lines. Is there going to be a change to the two party system, in the US in the future?
    One of the advantages of human mortality is that old generations die and younger generations with different ideas take control. The US is going to be a very different place once the baby boomers are gone.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
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    Luckily I have a Constitutional right to religious freedom.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Luckily I have a Constitutional right to religious freedom.
    Here is your chance to tell us why it is important:

    3...

    2...

    1...

    Go!

  8. #28
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Because these democracies did not evolve 'naturally'. I concede that the people have to want it to make it work. But democracy is up and running today in Germany, the very same place it so famously failed in the 1920's.
    Because: Communist movements failed to survive the fall of the soviet union(They were utterly destroyed by Nato during the cold-war), and lost the cold war conflict with the free-world(Globalist, Liberal-democratic capitalist federation of states lead by US). Marxists today are a joke... compared to what they were in the first part of the 20th century. And the third position fascists eternally disgraced themselves by causing inconceivable amounts of destruction, besides losing the war and not surviving the onslaught of the communist russia and the free world forces. Germany works, because in the west, US and their free world allies destroyed any competing patrons and ideologies. Now that free-world alliance expanded it's ideological territories beyond the west, it's competing with other ideological forces and belief-systems over dominion.

    Liberal democracy only works where there are no strong ideological forces and societal institutions and conditions that disturb the peace. I'd wager if US had stronger racial ideologies amongst it's major demographics, liberal democracy would collapse.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Here is your chance to tell us why it is important:

    3...

    2...

    1...

    Go!
    That's the great thing about the constitution, I don't have to tell you why it's important..... Not that any explanation would ever satisfy you.

    Freedom of Religion is an extant right. The onus is on you to prove that any constraint of that freedom serves a compelling gov't interest that can't be served by any less onerous means.

    Good luck with that.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Because: Communist movements failed to survive the fall of the soviet union(They were utterly destroyed by Nato during the cold-war), and lost the conflict with the free-world(Globalist, Liberal-democratic capitalist federation of states lead by US). Marxists today are a joke... compared to what they were in the first part of the 20th century. And the third position fascists eternally disgraced themselves by causing inconceivable amounts of destruction, besides losing the war and not surviving the onslaught of the communist russia and the free world forces. Germany works, because in the west, US destroyed any competing patrons and ideologies. Now that US expanded it's ideological territories beyond the west, it's competing with other ideological forces and belief-systems over dominion.
    No one claims that democracy stepped into a virginal world and beguiled everyone by force of her ideological beauty alone, nor that she will survive the ages. But, today and for a good while to come, she is doing fine in some places.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    That's the great thing about the constitution, I don't have to tell you why it's important..... Not that any explanation would ever satisfy you.

    Freedom of Religion is an extant right. The onus is on you to prove that any constraint of that freedom serves a compelling gov't interest that can't be served by any less onerous means.

    Good luck with that.
    Then your only argument is that it is in the constitution? It's important because it's important?

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