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  1. #1
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Default Another blow to religious freedom

    The Kansas House had passed a bill that would have made it legal to refuse service to homosexuals if homosexuality conflicted with your religious beliefs. Unfortunately, the bill is being stalled in the Kansas Senate.

    Supporters said their intent was to prevent florists, bakers and photographers from being punished for refusing to participate in same-sex weddings, keep churches from having to provide space or clergy for such ceremonies and keep religiously affiliated adoption agencies from being forced to place children with gay couples. Critics said the bill was much broader than advertised and would encourage discrimination against gays and lesbians.
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-senator-says/

    Here's a link to the bill, itself.

    http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b201...53_01_0000.pdf
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    No response by Beorn, DiscoBiscuit, or lowtech_redneck? Surely they would support a bill that would allow religious people act, or not act, based upon their religious convictions. If you believe people have a constitutional right to exercise their truly held religious beliefs, then you must support this bill.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #3
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    two of my conclusions (cross posted, still my words, so not plagirism)
    I've been thinking and my realization is, the bible is such a large text with many different laws that really it can be used as a tool of manipulation. To push forward one's own agenda. So how do we stop it? we really can't, because so many don't read the bible or rather study it closely. and because it's so much information at once someone can come in, and be like blah blah blah and others would be like oh yeah! I agree! even if they don't actually know what they're agreeing to. It's particularly bad if the person manipulation is a leader, or someone the church looks up to. And these beliefs can last generations, because religious opininion doesn't evolve as fast as other opinions. Since people are going "look! look! it says right here that I'm right (picks out random verse), and because I'm right it gives me the right to judge and persecute you" funny how such christians forget that jesus said like at least 5 times in the gospel to not judge or persecute.
    First of all even the most logical people are occasionally guilty of making decisions based on emotion, and these people justify it by twisting their emotional responses into what seems logical. So one influential person comes along and appeals to people’s emotions on how we should only eat chocolate cake and that eating vanilla cake is a sin. Now a few people will go along with, but there’s still a lot of people going what the fuck? So the leader and his followers keep pushing that eating vanilla cake is a sin. Now if the leader is skilled enough he will twist his ideas in to a sort of logic and bring in more followers (perhaps conducting "scientific" studies on how vanilla cake is worse for you then chocolate cake and will kill you faster). People don’t really question things that deeply. Ok so now there’s enough people anti-vanilla cake so they begin persecuting someone who is eating vanilla cake and the people still on the fence about the cake get scared and begin saying that vanilla cake is a sin, not because they truly believe but because they don’t want to be persecuted. Now there will be a sect of the population who aren't afraid of being persecuted but don’t want to be left out, and feel that socially they have to agree with the majority. And this is how mass opinions get formed. So not everyone agrees in the end, but at this point the overwhelming majority is on the side that vanilla cake is a sin. it doesn't matter or not if they actually believe it or not it's how they’re going to vote. Out of fear, or genuine belief, luckily the minority still has a chance as they just need to keep fighting back no matter what, and hopefully have on influential person on their side
    I don't know if this does any good
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #4
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I think people should have the right to be silly, especially if they have elevated it to a religious belief.
    Likes Jaguar liked this post

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I think people should have the right to be silly, especially if they have elevated it to a religious belief.
    I just feel bad for all the Arizonians begging people not to boycott the state if Brewer signs off on a similar bill that just passed both voting bodies out there. They apparently can't flee the state for one reason or another, and any grassroots economic damage to the area will impact people who disagree with the law but are stuck there at the moment.

    Apparently the SuperBowl is supposed to happen there next year. And since most of the large companies are non-discriminatory, I'm not sure if Apple and the others want to keep facilities or move facilities to Arizona. Talk about shooting yourself in the feet while gunning for someone else...

    Anyway, this is the new strategy of the right: Since it looks like they're about to lose the gay marriage war, they're just finding a different way to approach the matter, despite how if the law is applied equally (rather than just serving one branch of Christianity) it can allow discrimination against people of all faiths including themselves, as long as it is "sincere."

    Opponents raised scenarios in which gay people in Arizona could be denied service at a restaurant or refused medical treatment if a business owner thought homosexuality was not in accordance with his religion. One lawmaker held up a sign that read "NO GAYS ALLOWED" in arguing what could happen if the law took effect, drawing a rebuke for violating rules that bar signs on the House floor.

    Democrats also said there were a host of other scenarios not involving sexual orientations where someone could raise their religious beliefs as a discrimination defense.

    The bill is backed by the Center for Arizona Policy, a social conservative group that opposes abortion and gay marriage. The group says the proposal is needed to protect against increasingly activist federal courts and simply clarifies existing state law.

    "We see a growing hostility toward religion," said Josh Kredit, legal counsel for the group.
    Yeah. WTF do you think THAT is, Mr. Kredit? This kind of thing has just ramped the hostility to another level, not reduced it. This is quickly becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Since when does their religion allow them leave to not love their fellow man and treat them as they themselves want to be treated just coz they're gay?

    I thought that was the core premise of christianity here and let God do the tallying of sins during their life?

    Id say its against their religion to discriminate - especially when the other person needs help of some sort (hospitality, Good Samaritan, love thy neighbour,.... no? Suddenly not a part of their beliefs?)
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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Since when does their religion allow them leave to not love their fellow man and treat them as they themselves want to be treated just coz they're gay?

    I thought that was the core premise of christianity here and let God do the tallying of sins during their life?

    Id say its against their religion to discriminate - especially when the other person needs help of some sort (hospitality, Good Samaritan, love thy neighbour,.... no? Suddenly not a part of their beliefs?)
    That's probably what irritates me the most. Based on who Jesus enjoyed spending his time with in the accounts these people claim to worship... I don't think he would have denied a gay couple a wedding cake [least of the situations] and in fact probably would have danced at the wedding.

    (Whereupon all the Pharisees would have started throwing rocks at him.)

    'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." Inhospitality was a huge deal in the Jewish culture.

    It's like with the whole "gay marriage scare," people are forgetting who they are.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
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    Huh. Why is refusal due specifically to sexual orientation covered? Why not also include miscegenation or infertility? Lots of religions have a bone to pick with those, too.

  9. #9
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's probably what irritates me the most. Based on who Jesus enjoyed spending his time with in the accounts these people claim to worship... I don't think he would have denied a gay couple a wedding cake [least of the situations] and in fact probably would have danced at the wedding.

    (Whereupon all the Pharisees would have started throwing rocks at him.)

    'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." Inhospitality was a huge deal in the Jewish culture.

    It's like with the whole "gay marriage scare," people are forgetting who they are.
    It's pretty much impossible for me to take anything you say about the bible seriously after this.

    The first ministry act Jesus did was confront a samaritan woman with her sexual sin so your statement is pretty absurd. Maybe Jesus would go to gay marriage ceremony, but if he did I don't think he would keep his opinions to himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by John 4
    16 Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here."
    17 The woman answered him, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, 'I have no husband';
    18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."
    19 The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.
    20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship."
    21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
    22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
    23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
    Fun guy to have at a party! Pointing out everyone's sexual sin!

    Jesus spent time with prostitutes and taxmen because THEY WERE SINNERS not because they were being unfairly called sinners (though their treatment might have been hypocritical).

  10. #10
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Anyway, this is the new strategy of the right: Since it looks like they're about to lose the gay marriage war, they're just finding a different way to approach the matter, despite how if the law is applied equally (rather than just serving one branch of Christianity) it can allow discrimination against people of all faiths including themselves, as long as it is "sincere."
    Your framing of this is absurd. This isn't a new strategy. The Christians are on the defense here. It's the LGBT lobby that is pushing things. They don't want equality. They want acceptance and they won't stop until they get it.

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