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  1. #61
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The sympathy one has or doesn't have for the parties involved shouldn't matter on issues pertaining to individual rights*, but I did offer an example with a conveniently sympathetic victim contrasted with a notable villain that you didn't address; would you have a Jewish wedding photographer be coerced into providing their creative input and active participation in a Nazi-themed wedding? Its the same issue with different victims.
    You are mixing up victims and "villains", for lack of a better term. The correct analogy would be forcing a Nazi photographer to do pictures for a Jewish wedding. Gays, like Jews, are the victims. We eventually decided we wouldn't allow businesses to refuse to serve blacks, including mixed race couples, however deep-seated and genuine the proprietors' belief in "racial purity" and white supremacy. It is nothing but social regress to have to fight this battle all over again for gays, or any other group.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #62
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The Bible can be used to justify anything.
    Totally agree. It's all about interpretation right?

    The tragic irony is the history behind the bible, not what's in it, but rather how it came to be available to the public. It was punishable, for non clergy, to even own a copy for several hundred years A.D. Let's not forget that it was penned in Hebrew, translated later into Greek, spread around a bit, then ripped into Latin (those Romans had perma-boners for anything Greek) FTR this about the time of the East/West split. Oh and then it was translated to Olde English, then Middle English, then finally Modern English (1380).
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is nothing but social regress to have to fight this battle all over again for gays, or any other group.
    Agreed.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #64
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Not if you believe the Koran is the literal word of God.
    ...And they never verify the source?
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  5. #65
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The sympathy one has or doesn't have for the parties involved shouldn't matter on issues pertaining to individual rights*, but I did offer an example with a conveniently sympathetic victim contrasted with a notable villain that you didn't address; would you have a Jewish wedding photographer be coerced into providing their creative input and active participation in a Nazi-themed wedding? Its the same issue with different victims.
    As someone else suggested (I think), we're talking about people with different religious beliefs and values where none are 'wronging each other," but your example is about a Jew having to help a Nazi who butchered six million Jews in WWII. Seriously? Do you seriously see that as an equitable example?

    We're not talking about "Jews helping Nazis" or "victims helping rapists" or any other situation where one group was victimized by another. in fact, if you want to make that case, the gay community has been victimized by the religious community for many many years. I even specifically mentioned this in my last post. Aside from the OT prescribing capital punishment for homosexual behavior, gay people have been considered insane or evil; lost their jobs; lost their families; been physically beaten and punished; thrown in jail; deported; and a host of other abuses at the hands of the RELIGIOUS community in the United States. In light of that, this would have just been one more example of abuse stemming from the religious community.

    Do you really want to make this kind of argument in this context? Seriously?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #66
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    My point is, we should always be on the side of kindness.
    Yes! This!
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  7. #67
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As someone else suggested (I think), we're talking about people with different religious beliefs and values where none are 'wronging each other," but your example is about a Jew having to help a Nazi who butchered six million Jews in WWII. Seriously? Do you seriously see that as an equitable example?

    We're not talking about "Jews helping Nazis" or "victims helping rapists" or any other situation where one group was victimized by another. in fact, if you want to make that case, the gay community has been victimized by the religious community for many many years. I even specifically mentioned this in my last post. Aside from the OT prescribing capital punishment for homosexual behavior, gay people have been considered insane or evil; lost their jobs; lost their families; been physically beaten and punished; thrown in jail; deported; and a host of other abuses at the hands of the RELIGIOUS community in the United States. In light of that, this would have just been one more example of abuse stemming from the religious community.

    Do you really want to make this kind of argument in this context? Seriously?
    I agree with your point. In a just society, no group would dominate or discriminate against another for any reason, even religious ones.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

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    -Magic Qwan

  8. #68
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are mixing up victims and "villains", for lack of a better term. The correct analogy would be forcing a Nazi photographer to do pictures for a Jewish wedding. Gays, like Jews, are the victims. We eventually decided we wouldn't allow businesses to refuse to serve blacks, including mixed race couples, however deep-seated and genuine the proprietors' belief in "racial purity" and white supremacy. It is nothing but social regress to have to fight this battle all over again for gays, or any other group.
    No, actually, the victim in either scenario is based on the person or group whose fundamental rights are being violated, it has absolutely nothing to do with how sympathetic a person or group is. "Social regress" is having to refight the centuries-long struggle to establish and define freedom of conscience as one of the highest rights on the hierarchy, not to mention the concept that one's rights should not be protected if they are a member of a currently unpopular group, yet another cornerstone of the entire 'rights' paradigm, the same paradigm that is ultimately responsible for progress having been made on gay rights in the first place.

  9. #69
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    How about this for a hypothetical:

    Bob a doctor and Jim a florist are both gay and know one another. Bob undergoes a controversial course of conversion therapy and after two years he decides he wants to stop having relationships with males and get married to an old female friend, Sarah. Bob asks Jim to do the flowers for their wedding. Jim believes Bob is pursuing a lifestyle that is incompatible with his sexual orientation and refuses to provide flowers as a protest. Should Bob be able to sue Jim for discrimination?

  10. #70
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As someone else suggested (I think), we're talking about people with different religious beliefs and values where none are 'wronging each other," but your example is about a Jew having to help a Nazi who butchered six million Jews in WWII. Seriously? Do you seriously see that as an equitable example?
    Way to miss the point.*

    In the eyes of the law, and as a matter of legal precedent, it IS equitable, just as the rights of Phelps were deemed to be equally relevant and applicable despite the fact that he's a gigantic shit-head whose actions caused emotional anguish for a sympathetic party. See my response to Coriolis above, ITS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE RIGHTS PARADIGM that has ultimately facilitated development on gay rights. I gave the example as a means of forcing people to consider the implications and consequences of their position when applied to different scenarios, as an example of legal rather than moral equivalence!

    *Incidentally, I was talking about neo-Nazis, not the actual perpetrators of a genocide.

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