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  1. #41
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Wait a minute. If you're not gay, then why does it matter to you?
    I can't believe I have to quote good pastor Niemöller yet again:

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #42
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I can't believe I have to quote good pastor Niemöller yet again:
    You mean they're going to come for the schizo-affective disorder people?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #43
    Ginkgo
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    Ugh, this bill passed in AZ is really just a solution looking for a problem, made entirely to appease WASPy, virulent, fundamentalist extremists. The way I look at it - if, by your religious beliefs, you think that you are aiding and abetting those who live a lifestyle opposed to your own through your job, then quit. But this bill truly makes no distinction between church and state.

    If it gets through the House, and even if, somewhere along the line, a judge draws the line by proclaiming that we should not be denying anyone their civil rights, it will cost us in taxpayer dollars.

    Makes me want to vomit.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I support the right of people not to be forced to actively participate in an activity that directly violates their religious beliefs, absent an overwhelming state interests to justify violating one of the most important rights in existence, yes. To do otherwise is to oppose meaningful religious freedom in practice, much like saying one supports free speech while endorsing 'hate speech' laws. This particular law may be too broadly written for its ostensible purpose-all services are not created equal; serving food and drinks does not signify endorsement of behavior or activities one is morally opposed to, while photographing a wedding or creating a specialized wedding cake does.

    Edit: Do you believe a Jewish wedding photographer (or just about any wedding photographer, for that matter) should be forced to photograph a wedding for neo-nazis, complete with swastikas and exhortations to breed for the cause of 'Aryan' supremacy? Do you believe being required by law to do so is qualitatively the same as requiring businesses to serve the Nazis drinks or sell them computer equipment? Anyone who answers 'no' to those questions yet opposes conscientious exemption in the case of gay weddings is not standing up for equal application of non-discrimination laws, they are simply seeking to make people whose beliefs they abhor suffer legal consequences for said beliefs.
    Being a Nazi is a choice. Being black is not a choice. Being disabled is not a choice. Being gay is not a choice.

    Which of these does not fit?

    I'll leave you with this nugget:

    "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." - 2 Chronicles 15:13 (KJV)

    The government should not get in the way of Christian's right to kill atheists because of their sincerely held religious beliefs, right? You'll accuse me of cherry-picking or taking a verse out of context, of course. That's the standard Christian response. But that's exactly the problem with allowing religion to encroach on government. The Bible can be used to justify anything.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Ugh, this bill passed in AZ is really just a solution looking for a problem, made entirely to appease WASPy, virulent, fundamentalist extremists. The way I look at it - if, by your religious beliefs, you think that you are aiding and abetting those who live a lifestyle opposed to your own through your job, then quit. But this bill truly makes no distinction between church and state.

    If it gets through the House, and even if, somewhere along the line, a judge draws the line by proclaiming that we should not be denying anyone their civil rights, it will cost us in taxpayer dollars.

    Makes me want to vomit.
    It's likely the Arizona governor vetoes the bill even though she's a Republican. Why? Because big business is against it (denying gays rights can hurt profits). And big business is the true master of the Republican party. I'll be shocked if Brewer actually signs it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #46
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's likely the Arizona governor vetoes the bill even though she's a Republican. Why? Because big business is against it (denying gays rights can hurt profits). And big business is the true master of the Republican party. I'll be shocked if Brewer actually signs it.
    Yeah, I suspect she'll veto and might just be letting it drag out so that the social dialogue itself might justify her veto / discourage Congress from passing such laws in the future.

    As you have noted, there's more at stake and interest here than primarily "gay rights / discrimination," this could really shoot AZ in the foot financially.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #47
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Being gay is not a choice.
    Entering into a gay marriage, however, is a choice, involving positive actions that go beyond the belief in, practice of and dissemination of any particular set of beliefs; the latter category of individual liberty is (rightfully) given priority over lesser liberties by the First Amendment, requiring a compelling state interest under 'strict scrutiny' to violate, and then only so far as minimally necessary to achieve the goals in question.

    As for the quote, its pretty easy to demonstrate a compelling state interests in not allowing the extraordinarily small number of religionist who interpret that as a contemporarily valid religious obligation to act on said belief, which in any event constitutes a direct violation of the same Constitutional rights under debate.

  8. #48
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I can't believe I have to quote good pastor Niemöller yet again:
    Which seems to me a good reason to prioritize the First Amendment and protect the religious freedom of people one disagrees with rather than force them to choose between their conscience and their livelihood.

  9. #49
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Entering into a gay marriage, however, is a choice, involving positive actions that go beyond the belief in, practice of and dissemination of any particular set of beliefs; the latter category of individual liberty is (rightfully) given priority over lesser liberties by the First Amendment, requiring a compelling state interest under 'strict scrutiny' to violate, and then only so far as minimally necessary to achieve the goals in question.
    I'm not going to claim being an expert; but in my cursory examination of the Utah and VA decisions, the decision to marry was actually considered a fundamental right (among a few other fundamental rights), under stricter scrutiny, and the state(s) could not show any compelling state interest to install a gay marriage ban except for singling out a particular class on the basis of one's religious belief for discrimination. Decision after decision, all with the same basic points, all harkening back to last summer's DOMA decision.

    SCOTUS set the precedent; and all of these decisions are being made in context of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Which seems to me a good reason to prioritize the First Amendment and protect the religious freedom of people one disagrees with rather than force them to choose between their conscience and their livelihood.
    Considering the same religious people ruined the livelihood and well-being of the minority status due to rampant discrimination for at least a century in this country and created an untenable living environment for them FAR beyond what the religious people will ever experience in return, you shouldn't be surprised if there's little sympathy going around. And "religious freedom" is a vague term that can be claimed by anyone.

    What saddens me is that someone's world could be small enough that they have to base the crux of their expression of faith on such superficial matters to the degree of abandoning their livelihood over it.

    EDIT: Welp, there goes another red state's gay marriage ban, barring appeal. They're falling like dominos.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4860669.html

    U.S. District Judge Orlando Garcia ruled Wednesday that Texas' ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional.

    Garcia issued a preliminary injunction on the state's ban, citing Supreme Court precedent. However, Garcia issued a stay on his order, meaning the ban will remain in effect pending appeal.

    “Today’s court decision is not made in defiance of the great people of Texas or the Texas Legislature, but in compliance with the U.S. Constitution and Supreme Court precedent,” Garcia wrote in the order. “Without a rational relation to a legitimate governmental purpose, state-imposed inequality can find no refuge in our U.S. Constitution.”
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I can't believe I have to quote good pastor Niemöller yet again:
    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
    exactly and if I help people who mean no harm to society now, and they end up being ok, if I ever need them in the future, they'll be more willing to help. I don't think I'll ever be in such a situation, but you never know
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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