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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Glad I don't live in Kansas.
    "Come on, Toto! The Munchkins still want us around!"

    *woof*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Religion already gets enough blow jobs.

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The desire to not "be treated as a second-class citizen" just happens to infringe on other people's rights.
    I'm still waiting to hear how. Getting rid of the laws against interracial marriage didn't suddenly nullify the marriages of same-race couples, and getting rid of Jim Crow (whites only stores, etc.) seems just to have brought more business for everyone by removing barriers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The LGBT lobby wants to send people to jail who express religious views different from their own.
    If you cannot see the difference between expressing a personal belief and taking prejudicial action against specific people, it's not surprising you are so worried about the changing attitudes toward gays. It's still not illegal to say you don't like blacks and think they will never be as good as whites. You just cannot discriminate against them under the law. Same with gays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You've got to be kidding me. Society is deteriorating to the point that people don't even recognize sin. If you can't recognize sin then you don't even need a savior.
    Well, everyone doesn't agree with your definition of sin, nor does everyone share your view of "salvation". All that means is not everyone is Christian, and those who are might have even different interpretations of Christianity than you do. If this is unsettling to you, the U.S. might not be the best place to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Being inhospitable is a right. I don't believe in legislating hospitality, but apparently you do. You want to force people to conform to your religious view.
    Being personally inhospitable may be a right, but denying people equal protection under the law is not. You don't have to associate with gays, invite them to your parties, or be their friend. You are even allowed to ostracise your son/daughter if he/she comes out as gay or takes a same-sex partner, though that is a shame for other reasons. What you don't have the right to do is limit their access to public services and commercial activities on the basis of sexual orientation. You may be personally unhappy about this, but that makes you no different than the KKK devotee who must allow blacks to shop in his hardware store.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You can criticize my beliefs, but I believe that since orthodoxy has been around for a while it's you that have wondered off.
    The longevity of a belief is no guarantee of its moral correctness. Just look how long the world tolerated slavery.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I think I know what it feels like to be disturbed by the sense that you are rare or alone in a belief, that your belief is continuing to diminish further still, that other people don't take you seriously or respect you for it and don't bother to consider how their behavior seems to you. In that way, I can empathize with a lot of what conservatives seem to anguish over.

    Where they cross the line is the decision to go beyond asking for a respectful distance and to remove the things they dislike from other peoples' private lives.

    I cannot see any intellectually honest opposition to gay marriage that does not cross that line.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #25
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Laws like this will go to the circuit courts and die. I am not worried in the long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Religion already gets enough blow jobs.
    It gets rim jobs too.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If you cannot see the difference between expressing a personal belief and taking prejudicial action against specific people, it's not surprising you are so worried about the changing attitudes toward gays. It's still not illegal to say you don't like blacks and think they will never be as good as whites. You just cannot discriminate against them under the law. Same with gays.
    Pro-slavery Christians used the Bible to justify slavery. Some Christians believe in the "Curse of Canaan" even today. Take a look at this link. This is some creepy stuff.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/hallq/2...-evil-son-ham/

    I remember being told about this in church when I was growing up.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Pro-slavery Christians used the Bible to justify slavery. Some Christians believe in the "Curse of Canaan" even today. Take a look at this link. This is some creepy stuff.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/hallq/2...-evil-son-ham/

    I remember being told about this in church when I was growing up.
    Exactly. Interesting how the slaves used other parts of the Bible, like the story of Moses, to give them hope of freedom. This tells me much more about the Bible, though, than about the institution of slavery, and just goes to show that people can use the Bible to support almost anything.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No response by Beorn, DiscoBiscuit, or lowtech_redneck? Surely they would support a bill that would allow religious people act, or not act, based upon their religious convictions. If you believe people have a constitutional right to exercise their truly held religious beliefs, then you must support this bill.
    I support the right of people not to be forced to actively participate in an activity that directly violates their religious beliefs, absent an overwhelming state interests to justify violating one of the most important rights in existence, yes. To do otherwise is to oppose meaningful religious freedom in practice, much like saying one supports free speech while endorsing 'hate speech' laws. This particular law may be too broadly written for its ostensible purpose-all services are not created equal; serving food and drinks does not signify endorsement of behavior or activities one is morally opposed to, while photographing a wedding or creating a specialized wedding cake does.

    Edit: Do you believe a Jewish wedding photographer (or just about any wedding photographer, for that matter) should be forced to photograph a wedding for neo-nazis, complete with swastikas and exhortations to breed for the cause of 'Aryan' supremacy? Do you believe being required by law to do so is qualitatively the same as requiring businesses to serve the Nazis drinks or sell them computer equipment? Anyone who answers 'no' to those questions yet opposes conscientious exemption in the case of gay weddings is not standing up for equal application of non-discrimination laws, they are simply seeking to make people whose beliefs they abhor suffer legal consequences for said beliefs.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The Kansas House had passed a bill that would have made it legal to refuse service to homosexuals if homosexuality conflicted with your religious beliefs. Unfortunately, the bill is being stalled in the Kansas Senate.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...-senator-says/

    Here's a link to the bill, itself.

    http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b201...53_01_0000.pdf
    What is the purpose of rejecting gay people? It's self-righteous and God is not impressed by self-righteousness. The fact is, Jesus loves ALL PEOPLE. Jesus had plenty of enemies that were the meanest, backbiting, two-faced folks out there that brutally beat him, tortured him, and nailed him to a cross, but guess what? Jesus loved them anyway and asked God to forgive them because they know not what they do.

  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Edit: Do you believe a Jewish wedding photographer (or just about any wedding photographer, for that matter) should be forced to photograph a wedding for neo-nazis, complete with swastikas and exhortations to breed for the cause of 'Aryan' supremacy? Do you believe being required by law to do so is qualitatively the same as requiring businesses to serve the Nazis drinks or sell them computer equipment? Anyone who answers 'no' to those questions yet opposes conscientious exemption in the case of gay weddings is not standing up for equal application of non-discrimination laws, they are simply seeking to make people whose beliefs they abhor suffer legal consequences for said beliefs.
    Actually, I see it all the situations as comparable, whether involving computer equipment or wedding cakes; Gays or Jews or nazis. Most of these situations, especially the personal and specialized ones like wedding services, will sort themselves out without legal constraint. I doubt most neo-Nazis would patronize Jewish businesses, given a choice, and I suspect most gay couples would prefer to have their wedding pictures and cake done by someone who at least holds no animosity for them. In the rare instance of the small town with only one photographer or bakery, both groups may have no choice, unless they have friends to conscript for these services.

    I used to live in an area that had a "Christian Yellow Pages" - a directory of businesses run by self-identified Christians. Christians who wanted to give their business to other Christians would use it when they needed a plumber, computer repair, jeweller, etc. Refusing to serve customers in a certain group may be illegal, but preferring to patronize businesses in a specific group is not. These biases thus usually play out from the customer end.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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