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  1. #181
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Why would I want to make a case?

    Why play into a hypothetical specifically engineered to skewer religion?

    This is more fun.
    It demonstrates the logical inconsistency of the application of religious freedom by "religious freedom champions". What people like you really want is freedom for YOUR religion, and no others. You cloak it in high-minded ideals, but it's really about you getting what you want at the expense of others.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It demonstrates the logical inconsistency of the application of religious freedom by religious freedom champions. What people like you really want is freedom for YOUR religion, and no others. You cloak it in high-minded ideals, but it's really about you just getting what you want at the expense of others.
    And you know I don't care about protecting Sikh's, Muslims, Jew's, Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox etc... how?

    Because that's quite the leap to make.

  3. #183
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Protection of religious liberty falls squarely within gov't jurisdiction, hell its what this country was founded on.
    No one is holding a gun to this employee's head, forcing or prohibiting him/her from being able to worship or have liberty.
    ]
    You do a job, if you don't, you can get fired. If you get fired unlawfully, there is an avenue to sue for that.

    There is no need for more laws.
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  4. #184
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Protection of religious liberty falls squarely within gov't jurisdiction, hell its what this country was founded on.
    Religious liberty is one of many things this country was founded upon, but that was far from the most important. When Parliament raised taxes on the colonies after the Seven Years War, that's what really lead to the revolution. Saying it was all about religion is more revisionist history by Christians who want to claim ownership of things they never owned.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #185
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    And you know I don't care about protecting Sikh's, Muslims, Jew's, Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox etc... how?

    Because that's quite the leap to make.
    How many posts have you made about Muslims being denied the right to open mosques in the US? That's far, far more egregious than anything Christians are facing. I rest my case.

    Edit: And in case you think that doesn't actually happen:

    https://www.aclu.org/maps/map-nation...osque-activity

    But you probably think allowing mosques to be built infringes on Christians constitutional right to oppress Muslims.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #186
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    From a legal and political perspective I'm uncomfortable with setting a precedent whereby the state can force people to violate their beliefs. That precedent, and the civil liberty questions involved in it are what concerns me, not gay people getting married.

    If the state can force people to violate their beliefs, it can also force a church to conduct a gay marriage ceremony.

    Giving the state that power frightens me, and in my opinion makes us less free.
    As part of finding some common ground, I can empathize with that. It's a good thing to not have government interfere with personal conscience. The problem is when, in a diverse populace, there are competing goods in play. How do you determine which good takes precedence in a situation where both are in conflict?

    It's clear that there will be issues where both sides do feel that their conscience is leading in different directions. In that situation, I think the government exists TO intervene and make a determination so that the country doesn't tear itself apart, to be the final arbiter (although final is not always final and issues can be revisited).

    If everyone agreed, there would probably be little need for government to make any kinds of decisions. But the United States claims to value diversity and is very much today a melting pot, so much that very different beliefs are all residing under the same umbrella. We either agree to some kind of oversight, or we might as well start breaking the country up into smaller nations where people feel more comfortable. (And philosophically, that has its own kind of sweetness to it; personally, I don't like forcing people to comply and would prefer everyone be free to do their own thing and go their own way if need be.)

    However, that's not the country as it currently exists. There has to be some kind of stability and oversight. For me, personally, this is a discrimination issue to be resolved as we have resolved other civil rights issues over time. I know that some here do not agree with that -- the reality of which I need to accept, but it doesn't change my view of what I think is just.

    Also, while my whole life has been spent with and/or dealing with Christianity and various Christian mentalities, I personally just believe the practice of faith can be very rigid and literal in this country; the things being viewed as compromises don't need to be viewed as compromises at all. But some faiths haven't allowed themselves much wriggle room because of the hard delineations they have drawn for themselves and others. I even feel that some of the rigidity/judgment is antithetical to the spirit of the Gospel. But not everyone shares that view. There is no way to reconcile those beliefs.

    My post here is stepping from the broad economic and political discussion we've been having and entering it into the personal. I don't know how to resolve the problem for everyone to be happy, and that disappoints and bothers me. At the same time, I would have felt the same way in terms of abolition or suffrage or civil rights, and it wouldn't have changed what I would have felt needed to happen in that situation either.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    No one is holding a gun to this employee's head, forcing or prohibiting him/her from being able to worship or have liberty.
    Being forced to violate one's religious beliefs curtails their religious liberty. Would you agree?

    What is the bigger burden, violating your beliefs or going to a different store?

    That's as simple as the question gets.

  8. #188
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    How many posts have you made about Muslims being denied the right to open mosques in the US? That's far, far more egregious than anything Christians are facing. I rest my case.
    How many posts have you made about the evils of Pol Pot?

    You must support South East Asian genocide then.

    I rest my case.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    How do you determine which good takes precedence in a situation where both are in conflict?
    You make the least burdensome compromise you can.

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