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  1. #171
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Religion and Economics were tightly intertwined for quite sometime.

    Economics didn't really come into its own until the industrial revolution and the birth of Nation States and companies.

    Even then religion played a more important role in shaping the face of civilization until probably the 20th century.
    The study of economics may not have come into its own until then, but the phenomenon has existed for as long as there has been human civilization. You might as well be arguing that evolution did not affect humans until the publication of On the Origin of Species. Economics had a huge impact on peoples' lives, every single day.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    It's tough because God's Law is clearly for marriage between a man and a woman. And His Law also states you should keep yourself far from a false matter.

    But it also says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Give to everyone who asks of you. As you would like people to do to you, do exactly so to them. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned.

    Overall, God gives people individual free will to sin. We must live amongst each other as sinners. If we all shunned each other because of sin, we'd not be able to interact!

    It comes down to having to perform a job, and being expected to perform it. Not citing false religious doctrine as a scapegoat to humbling yourself to your employer and God.

    Instead of shunning other sinners (like themselves), Christians should "let their light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

    This Kansas thing is a rare case of government going too far to protect citizens' so-called religious rights. And really, at its core, it's a complete misinterpretation of God's Law. sigh.
    From a religious perspective I agree with you.

    From a legal and political perspective I'm uncomfortable with setting a precedent whereby the state can force people to violate their beliefs. That precedent, and the civil liberty questions involved in it are what concerns me, not gay people getting married.

    If the state can force people to violate their beliefs, it can also force a church to conduct a gay marriage ceremony.

    Giving the state that power frightens me, and in my opinion makes us less free.

  3. #173
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    From a legal and political perspective I'm uncomfortable with setting a precedent whereby the state can force people to violate their beliefs.
    Say I found a religion one of whose beliefs is that speed limitations are unholy. My religion is sure to attract a lot of foolish car owners. In five years, we have five million followers. What now?

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Say I found a religion one of whose beliefs is that speed limitations are unholy. My religion is sure to attract a lot of foolish car owners. In five years, we have five million followers. What now?
    Thank God for the Autobahn.

  5. #175
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    From a religious perspective I agree with you.

    From a legal and political perspective I'm uncomfortable with setting a precedent whereby the state can force people to violate their beliefs. That precedent, and the civil liberty questions involved in it are what concerns me, not gay people getting married.

    If the state can force people to violate their beliefs, it can also force a church to conduct a gay marriage ceremony.

    Giving the state that power frightens me, and in my opinion makes us less free.

    But those beliefs must be sound in some way. They must be valid to have law made upon them.

    Not all beliefs are created equal.

    I can cite all kinds of beliefs that conflict with doing my job. I don't believe in giving out pain meds to old addicted veterans in the nursing home, but it is part of my job description, and I understand if I don't, I will get fired. I also understand that if my belief boundaries are crossed too much, I will quit. The government cannot serve both agendas.


    And a church is outside government jurisdiction.
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  6. #176
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Thank God for the Autobahn.
    You must argue better if you want to make your case. Belly alone is not enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    And a church is outside government jurisdiction.
    If that were true, they could perform sacrificial killings if their religion so required. Surely that is not the case.

  7. #177
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Thank God for the Autobahn.
    But this religion would apply everywhere, not just highways. School zones would directly conflict with this religion.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    You must argue better if you want to make your case. Belly alone is not enough.
    Why would I want to make a case?

    Why play into a hypothetical specifically engineered to skewer religion?

    This is more fun.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    But those beliefs must be sound in some way. They must be valid to have law made upon them.

    Not all beliefs are created equal.

    I can cite all kinds of beliefs that conflict with doing my job. I don't believe in giving out pain meds to old addicted veterans in the nursing home, but it is part of my job description, and I understand if I don't, I will get fired. I also understand that if my belief boundaries are crossed too much, I will quit. The government cannot serve both agendas.


    And a church is outside government jurisdiction.
    Protection of religious liberty falls squarely within gov't jurisdiction, hell its what this country was founded on.

  10. #180
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Why play into a hypothetical specifically engineered to skewer religion?
    Because it shows the absurdity inherent in your belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    School zones would directly conflict with this religion.
    True, and we have indeed run over a couple of children already. Thankfully, it was in the name of our as yet unnamed deity, who also demands that we be exempt from legal persecution.

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