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  1. #141
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Entering into a gay marriage, however, is a choice, involving positive actions that go beyond the belief in, practice of and dissemination of any particular set of beliefs; the latter category of individual liberty is (rightfully) given priority over lesser liberties by the First Amendment, requiring a compelling state interest under 'strict scrutiny' to violate, and then only so far as minimally necessary to achieve the goals in question.

    As for the quote, its pretty easy to demonstrate a compelling state interests in not allowing the extraordinarily small number of religionist who interpret that as a contemporarily valid religious obligation to act on said belief, which in any event constitutes a direct violation of the same Constitutional rights under debate.
    Wait, so government can ignore "religious freedom" if it has a compelling interest in doing so? You realize what you're saying with this, right? You're saying that the government has the power to limit what religions can practice.

    I would think that the State would have a compelling interest in getting children out of foster homes and into permanent homes by allowing married gay couples to adopt, but I guess that's just not compelling enough for you, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #142
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my main argument is: let's say you think homosexuality is a sin/it's a sin/etc. cool, that's your business. what I don't get then is: why don't you deny service to other sinners like thieves, murderers, rapists, etc?
    The "Christian response" is going to be something about repentance. Thieves, murderers, and rapists can repent, but homosexuals practicing homosexuality are not repenting. Many Christians only accept homosexuals (if they accept them at all) when they deny their sexual orientation...basically when homosexuals are doing things that fuck themselves up psychologically, i.e. leading a fake heterosexual lifestyle.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #143
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I believe the problems disappears the second we introduce even a modicum of reality. The famous photographer forced to take pictures of a gay wedding? Does not exist. If he is so opposed to it, he will voice his belief, probably be an unfriendly asshole in the process, and simply not get the job. On the other hand, if I walk into a restaurant arm in arm with Chanaynay and the manager tells us to leave because of whom he thinks we fuck, the entire scene is different. Discrimination and public humiliation are not on par with a baker or photographer declining to enter a business deal. The fact is, not all businesses are equal.
    I thought this was something that actually happened. I thought there was a wedding photographer who was being sued by a gay couple after refusing to work their wedding. Maybe that was made up. If it's real, it's a silly lawsuit and I would imagine it would be virtually impossible to get any sort of financial settlement.

    I agree with you on the point of not all businesses being equal. There's a big difference between a freelance wedding photographer refusing to do a gay wedding and a doctor refusing to treat someone because they are a homosexual. Giving up the ability to refuse to serve certain people is a choice you make when you enter certain lines of business.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #144
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I thought this was something that actually happened. I thought there was a wedding photographer who was being sued by a gay couple after refusing to work their wedding. Maybe that was made up.
    It certainly seems made-up. But even if it is not, it surely is far from being representative of the great Arizonian wedding photography business.

  5. #145
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...se.html?pg=all

    Thursday, Aug. 22 2013
    A commercial photography business owned by opponents of same-sex marriage violated New Mexico's anti-discrimination law by refusing to take pictures of a gay couple's commitment ceremony, the state's highest court ruled unanimously Thursday.

    Elaine Huguenin, who owns Elane Photography with her husband and is the business's principal photographer, refused to photograph the ceremony because it violated her religious beliefs.

    The court held that "a commercial photography business that offers its services to the public, thereby increasing its visibility to potential clients" is bound by the New Mexico Human Rights Act "and must serve same-sex couples on the same basis that it serves opposite-sex couples."

    "Therefore, when Elane Photography refused to photograph a same-sex commitment ceremony," the court concluded, the photographer "violated the NMHRA in the same way as if it had refused to photograph a wedding between people of different races."

    The court rejected arguments that the anti-discrimination law violated the photographer's right to free speech and the free exercise of religious beliefs...
    I think one of the distinctions is that it's a "commercial photography business owned by religious people." If it were an individual just taking pictures and wasn't incorporated? Might have been a different outcome. At that point, individual freedom comes into play.

    "A commercial business cannot solicit customers from the general public to buy its services as a photographer for hire and then claim that taking those photographs is a form of its own autonomous expressive activity," the ACLU argued on its website.
    While typically supply and demand would rule such exchanges (as others are suggesting), I think the situation here in the USA has reached a high level of volatility where both sides are instigating conflicts in order to promote their own views publicly. Letting the market regulate itself might not be a realistic possibility at this point.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #146
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    How much money is this going to cost her?

    Nevermind, it looks like the initial ruling was for $7000 in restitution. That sounds like way too much to me.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #147
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    While typically supply and demand would rule such exchanges (as others are suggesting), I think the situation here in the USA has reached a high level of volatility where both sides are instigating conflicts in order to promote their own views publicly.
    Publicity stunts diluting the normal flow of things really do screw up the arguments on both sides. I blame... the media.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Phew! Your true colors are not beautiful.
    Not to you maybe.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I don't see anyone forcing other people to be gay. We still have folks pressuring gay folks to be straight, though. It's a double standard.
    Just forcing people to violate beliefs as important as sexual identity.

  10. #150
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Publicity stunts diluting the normal flow of things really do screw up the arguments on both sides. I blame... the media.
    Damn the media.
    Damn them to hell.

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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