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  1. #131
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    There is a difference between the two. Religion is a belief, and something someone chooses to have. Since it is a belief and nothing more, it can't be proven and backed as any sort of fact. Homosexuality is how someone is. The two are not the same.
    The principle that homosexual relationships are moral and healthy for homosexuals is also a belief. A notable lack of objective evidence to suggest otherwise in no way changes that, and all beliefs must receive the same protection. There are obviously disagreements about what constitutes speech or the participation in an event, but applying your standard to the First Amendment in general would effectively nullify it.

  2. #132
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    But the law includes government workers. They don't work for a business owner per se, but they're very definitely employees.
    If that's true, then I oppose the law and the government workers have no First Amendment right to discriminate against legal behavior (and should be fired, and possibly prosecuted under certain conditions involving the abuse of power).

  3. #133
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The principle that homosexual relationships are moral and healthy for homosexuals is also a belief. A notable lack of objective evidence to suggest otherwise in no way changes that, and all beliefs must receive the same protection. There are obviously disagreements about what constitutes speech or the participation in an event, but applying your standard to the First Amendment in general would effectively nullify it.
    It's not a belief, it's a fact. Many studies have shown that homosexual relationships are indeed healthy. The morality? That will forever be up for debate I suspect.

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  4. #134
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It's not a belief, it's a fact. Many studies have shown that homosexual relationships are indeed healthy. The morality? That will forever be up for debate I suspect.

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    I guess I was too subtle....I agree with you. It is also a documented fact that the holocaust happened and that the earth is over 10,000 years old, but they are all still beliefs for the purposes of Constitutional protections, and if they weren't, any First Amendment right would not be secure.

    Its kind of like how a scientific 'theory' has a different meaning than the colloquial use of the term. The factual basis behind some 'beliefs' certainly help to demonstrate a compelling state interests under narrow conditions, but does not give such 'beliefs' favorable treatment under general Constitutional law.

  5. #135
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I guess I was too subtle....I agree with you. It is also a documented fact that the holocaust happened and that the earth is over 10,000 years old, but they are all still beliefs for the purposes of Constitutional protections, and if they weren't, any First Amendment right would not be secure.

    Its kind of like how a scientific 'theory' has a different meaning than the colloquial use of the term. The factual basis behind some 'beliefs' certainly help to demonstrate a compelling state interests under narrow conditions, but does not give such 'beliefs' favorable treatment under general Constitutional law.
    Ah. I'm quite blunt, and I don't bother with getting mired in the semantics and subtleties. Most go over my head anyway unless pointed out.
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  6. #136
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    my main argument is: let's say you think homosexuality is a sin/it's a sin/etc. cool, that's your business. what I don't get then is: why don't you deny service to other sinners like thieves, murderers, rapists, etc?
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  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Let the free market sort it out
    Yes, that always ends well.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my main argument is: let's say you think homosexuality is a sin/it's a sin/etc. cool, that's your business. what I don't get then is: why don't you deny service to other sinners like thieves, murderers, rapists, etc?

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It's not a belief, it's a fact. Many studies have shown that homosexual relationships are indeed healthy. The morality? That will forever be up for debate I suspect.

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    Morality is perhaps the most subjective aspect/characteristic of human society, so yes, I would agree it may never be resolved.

  10. #140
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Indeed one has been the foundation of western civilization and the other has come into mainstream vogue in about the last 10 years.
    Phew! Your true colors are not beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I find myself completely torn over this issue. I want individual rights to be preserved so that people can refuse clients and choose not to do something they don't want to, but I also don't want entire groups being discriminated against like the African American population was during segregation.
    I believe the problems disappears the second we introduce even a modicum of reality. The famous photographer forced to take pictures of a gay wedding? Does not exist. If he is so opposed to it, he will voice his belief, probably be an unfriendly asshole in the process, and simply not get the job. On the other hand, if I walk into a restaurant arm in arm with Chanaynay and the manager tells us to leave because of whom he thinks we fuck, the entire scene is different. Discrimination and public humiliation are not on par with a baker or photographer declining to enter a business deal. The fact is, not all businesses are equal.

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