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    Default Gender Politics

    [Mod Edit: Posts on the broader topic of gender politics have been moved here from the Male Disposability thread, at the request of the OP.]



    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Maybe "expected" but not actually done. In other words there is no such thing as female privilege in the area of maritime disasters.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...56109.abstract

    I've watched this speaker's videos before. She is an MRA or at least widely supported by internet men's rights activists (not to be confused with actual activists for men's rights!). For more info on this delightful internet mushroom go here. http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/
    Thanks for the link on Maritime disasters, I'll consume it when I get the chance. Could you elaborate on what you think a men's right activist is? Thanks!
    Last edited by Coriolis; 02-12-2014 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Thread split.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    Thanks for the link on Maritime disasters, I'll consume it when I get the chance. Could you elaborate on what you think a men's right activist is? Thanks!
    A men's rights activist would be someone who made their activity promotion and defense of men's rights with an aim to equality. This would be their goal. There are definitely areas in which women have privilege that men do not or in which men are treated a certain way simply due to being men rather then women. For example, a men's rights activists would attack traditional gender roles, a necessary obstacle to overcome for equality to be obtained.

    Although I'd like to see men included in the feminist movement I would just as much like to see a genuine popular masculinist/men's rights movement with an interest in equality and freedom for all. An ally for feminism.

    So I'd need to separate the above description of an actual men's rights movement with what I call the internet men's rights movement or the MRAs. They take genuine gender issues that matter and need attention, twist them up, and then use them to support misogynistic, anti-female, and anti-feminist viewpoints. I haven't watched enough of the OP's speaker to determine if she is an MRA but I know her videos are very popular in their camp which is...worrying.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    A men's rights activist would be someone who made their activity promotion and defense of men's rights with an aim to equality. This would be their goal. There are definitely areas in which women have privilege that men do not or in which men are treated a certain way simply due to being men rather then women. For example, a men's rights activists would attack traditional gender roles, a necessary obstacle to overcome for equality to be obtained.

    Although I'd like to see men included in the feminist movement I would just as much like to see a genuine popular masculinist/men's rights movement with an interest in equality and freedom for all. An ally for feminism.

    So I'd need to separate the above description of an actual men's rights movement with what I call the internet men's rights movement or the MRAs. They take genuine gender issues that matter and need attention, twist them up, and then use them to support misogynistic, anti-female, and anti-feminist viewpoints. I haven't watched enough of the OP's speaker to determine if she is an MRA but I know her videos are very popular in their camp which is...worrying.
    Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, take out the gender and you get "humanism" which I'd like to see more of. Girl Writes What?! recently (February 6th 2014) spoke at Ryerson University for a meeting of CAFE (the imbedded video), The Canadian Association For Equality, to discuss CAFE's victory for free speech.. CAFE recently raised enough funds to open Canada’s first dedicated support centre for men in Toronto named Centre for Men and Families, with 8 more planned in the near future.

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/11...en-in-toronto/

    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Although I'd like to see men included in the feminist movement I would just as much like to see a genuine popular masculinist/men's rights movement with an interest in equality and freedom for all. An ally for feminism.
    This got me to thinking about a video I watched of Chanty Binx aka Big Red and some feminists protesting a meeting of CAFE at the University of Toronto. I found the video humorous. The creator gives up what I'd consider a good summation of what I'm seeing with your comments, so far. It (the summation) starts at 10:43.

    *** WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE ! *** *** WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE ! *** *** WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE ! ***

    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    This got me to thinking about a video I watched of Chanty Binx aka Big Red and some feminists protesting a meeting of CAFE at the University of Toronto. I found the video humorous. The creator gives up what I'd consider a good summation of what I'm seeing with your comments, so far. It (the summation) starts at 10:43.

    *** WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE ! *** *** WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE ! *** *** WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE ! ***

    I was actually going to write a fairly detailed response to this video but after starting I've realized that really isn't necessary. Please, everyone new to MRAs or this MRM movement please watch this video. It is a pretty good representation of MRA arguments and attitudes.

    Because I'm lazy I'll pick out some stuff I noticed at the beginning then move on to the 10:43 part you pointed out. The woman in the video is clearly being verbally aggressive out of frustration, if you listen you can hear multiple voices of MRAs not giving her a moment to speak, and I think it's telling we don't see the beginning of this exchange. Please also note the author's seriously weird decision to distort her features at the start of the video, his (?) description of the counter-protesters as "violent fems" (clearly there was only one aggressive rather than violent fem, those, one assumes, feminists around her are entirely silent and apparently passive) and, most delightfully, his calling her "honey." All in the first few minutes of the video. Is it any clearer the rhetoric involved here? For example, he implies an interest in preserving the anonymity of the red haired woman when he states "let's just call her big red." In reality, after a video of her at this protest went viral the MRAs made it their business to uncover her personal information, spread it around, and harass her from every angle. Please go here http://manboobz.com/2013/04/15/canad...hts-activists/ for elaboration on that. For more about MRA threats and other abuses please read http://www.splcenter.org/get-informe...a-war-on-women

    He also states, in the early part of the video, that there is and never was a patriarchy in western society.
    patriarchy
    noun
    a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
    Women didn't have the vote in western society. Around a hundred or so years ago or some such. Do...do I even need to say any more? How many congressmen in america are women? Fudge all, I'm guessing. Where is the power in America? How many american female presidents have their been? How many female CEOs are there? I shiddidly didly dont spanky! Are you taking this guy seriously?

    I'll now respond to the 10:53 bit.
    Page 1
    First he states feminism's definition is to seek equality for women, or that's it's goal. I'll accept that. Then he states "It does not state a goal to give males equality." But if the goal of feminism is equality for women (as he states it) then I'm pretty sure that means equality to women in comparison to men. Therefore feminists do, as consequence, also pursue equality for men, if only as a result of pursuit of equality for women. Please don't get me wrong, the focus will and is on women and that really is a valid criticism of feminism. Take feminist rejections of womnen = primary care giver. How does that not support the MRA's desire for male custody of children in divorce cases?

    Feminist do not say the MRM is about equality for men only. If it was we wouldn't have a problem because that would (as mentioned above) result in them also assisting equality for women. Feminists think the MRAs want, if they want anything beyond spewing hate, to reclaim the old balance of power between men and women. Why do feminists think this? The rape threats, the misogynist language, the denial of historical male privilege (I refer you to the above). Key (popular) MRA figures saying some seriously terrible things that I will link you to if you like.

    He goes on to perform a classic Fox News "you have an opinion, I have an opinion, we disagree, so it's all equally valid" rhetorical move. I'll just...leave that.

    Page 2

    It's true what he says that both sides are accusing the other of aiming for supremacy while stating that they aim for equality. He goes on to state that this should be determined by finding out who is right and who is wrong--correct? He then sets up a false dichotomy. "You can't have both males and females being privileged over the other." Uh. Yes you can. Clearly you can. Spanky are you agreeing with him on this? Surely both men and women face sexist behavior for being either men or women? We might say that what he means is that only one sex can be privileged more and that is true. The reason, I suspect, he doesn't state this, is doing so would force him to admit their are areas in which women face sexism--something he can't admit to, considering his previous denials.

    Page 3

    Again the creation of an unrealistic black/white dichotomy. "which of these two sexes are disadvantaged." This is why feminism can't work with the MRAs, why many feminist dislike or even despise them. Your average feminist? Willing to admit their are areas in which men have it worse than women. Your average MRA? Not so much. The video you posted is a perfect example. Big red is trying to find middle ground (she is saying; look! we aren't against you on these issues) and she is just being talked over. I really can't blame her for getting angry.

    Then he bubbles on till the end.

    I hope you are grateful I took the time to respond to this holy moley.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    He also states, in the early part of the video, that there is and never was a patriarchy in western society.
    patriarchy
    noun
    a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.
    Women didn't have the vote in western society. Around a hundred or so years ago or some such. Do...do I even need to say any more? How many congressmen in america are women? Fudge all, I'm guessing. Where is the power in America? How many american female presidents have their been? How many female CEOs are there? I shiddidly didly dont spanky! Are you taking this guy seriously?
    I found it (the video) humorous mostly, especially his tangents onto food and his making a techno video. I don't believe in Patriarchy theory. To me the whole concept is similar to: People exist therefore there must be a designer, correlation not causation. I'd be interested in posting in a Patriarchy thread though and offer my perspective on the evidence you are positing (they're actually borrowed thoughts, are there truly any original thoughts?).

    The background on that video, which you haven't brought up. Some people (mostly MRAs) wanted to get together and have a meeting on campus at UT to discuss men's issues among other things. Some feminists and anarchists showed up to protest this meeting. They then moved the protest indoors. They wore masks and had their signs and were chanting/yelling etc. When they were locked out of the meeting area one of them decided to hit the fire alarm, requiring everyone at the meeting to leave the building. The meeting was effectively shut down as their time was up for the place they were using. When they rescheduled their meeting the campus administrators decided to require that they pay a "security fee" before they'd allow them to. Even though other groups that get together and generate protesters are not charged for security. That's when the whole issue blew up and really got big.

    I find it ironic that your comments, especially this last one is basically the same tactic that was employed at UT. Which is to say you are crashing a thread. Big Red showed up to protest and when someone interrupted her, she's somehow being mistreated? She's the victim now right? I do appreciate some of the points you are making though and will respond to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I'll now respond to the 10:53 bit.
    Page 1
    First he states feminism's definition is to seek equality for women, or that's it's goal. I'll accept that. Then he states "It does not state a goal to give males equality." But if the goal of feminism is equality for women (as he states it) then I'm pretty sure that means equality to women in comparison to men. Therefore feminists do, as consequence, also pursue equality for men, if only as a result of pursuit of equality for women. Please don't get me wrong, the focus will and is on women and that really is a valid criticism of feminism. Take feminist rejections of womnen = primary care giver. How does that not support the MRA's desire for male custody of children in divorce cases?
    As the video creator said, it is action not words, and he gave some examples and I'd agree that feminists don't dedicate any resources to this. He is basically pointing out what I think is the obvious, if you are for all equal rights you are a Humanist, not a feminist nor a MRA and if that's the case "act" like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Feminist do not say the MRM is about equality for men only. If it was we wouldn't have a problem because that would (as mentioned above) result in them also assisting equality for women. Feminists think the MRAs want, if they want anything beyond spewing hate, to reclaim the old balance of power between men and women. Why do feminists think this? The rape threats, the misogynist language, the denial of historical male privilege (I refer you to the above). Key (popular) MRA figures saying some seriously terrible things that I will link you to if you like.
    I think your perception of what MRAs want is erroneous. Depends on the person really, some men are just tired of getting screwed over by the "system" that is in place, specifically the legal system and the lack of equal government support/subsidies (insert laundry list of issues afflicting men). Most of us are raised to be "men" though (stoicism and whatnot) and don't really bother to speak up much, if at all, part of the reason that what used to be radical feminism is now mainstream. Some people don't buy into Patriarchy theory, myself included (see above). I'm sure we both could link to a ton of bigots on both sides, misandrist language, the denial of female privilege etc. Although the more aggressive fems tend to save the most venom for women who disagree with them especially ex-feminists. Erin Patria Margaret Pizzey comes to mind.

    Page 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    It's true what he says that both sides are accusing the other of aiming for supremacy while stating that they aim for equality. He goes on to state that this should be determined by finding out who is right and who is wrong--correct? He then sets up a false dichotomy. "You can't have both males and females being privileged over the other." Uh. Yes you can. Clearly you can. Spanky are you agreeing with him on this? Surely both men and women face sexist behavior for being either men or women? We might say that what he means is that The reason, I suspect, he doesn't state this, is doing so would force him to admit their are areas in which women face sexism--something he can't admit to, considering his previous denials.
    Both genders encounter sexism, agreed. I think it depends on the context really and the context I'm concerned about is the institutionalized variety, i.e. government/courts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Page 3

    Again the creation of an unrealistic black/white dichotomy. "which of these two sexes are disadvantaged." This is why feminism can't work with the MRAs, why many feminist dislike or even despise them. Your average feminist? Willing to admit their are areas in which men have it worse than women. Your average MRA? Not so much. The video you posted is a perfect example. Big red is trying to find middle ground (she is saying; look! we aren't against you on these issues) and she is just being talked over. I really can't blame her for getting angry.
    She went to protest a meeting and got heckled *shrug*.

    The reason I requested you to check out his summation:

    Patriarchy --> Feminism --> equalizing women = equalizing men. A circular argument, is what I got out of what he was saying. You're not allowed to disagree with any segment or the ideology breaks down. The problem I think is Feminists can't work with anyone who doesn't buy into Patriarchy theory. If you don't accept Patriarchy you can't "really" be for equality. Which, btw, is what they discussed in that meeting, ironically.

    Bigotry and sexism is bad for both sexes and equality should be strived for in my opinion, including for women. Me, I'm all for women in the military, conscription, equal economic opportunity etc. As a matter of fact I self labeled as a pro feminist for most of my adult life :P I chalk that up to unawareness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I hope you are grateful I took the time to respond to this holy moley.
    You provided me with an opportunity to explain a few things, but mostly you've hugely derailed this thread :P I'm partly to blame as well, eehh. Not like the subject doesn't interest me.

    I really wanted to get guys talking, which is like pulling teeth. If you go back to page 2 there a few men that responded to this thread. Look at their responses then compare them to the female responses to this thread. I find that interesting to be sure. "We" don't want to be labeled as complainers, whiners and frankly most would just spend their energy on something else. "We" accept our fate in this regards, male disposability. I know I for one would protect my wife and daughters with my life, such is my role.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post

    I find it ironic that your comments, especially this last one is basically the same tactic that was employed at UT. Which is to say you are crashing a thread. Big Red showed up to protest and when someone interrupted her, she's somehow being mistreated? She's the victim now right? I do appreciate some of the points you are making though and will respond to them.
    I'm just going to be brief in reply as you are right that this thread isn't primarily about the MRM. You did encourage me by posting that video though. As it happens, I would like a reply to the, what I thought, was a very fine point about firefighters you ignored.

    Yes protest and counter protest that's how this works. Did I say that her being interrupted made her mistreated? I said I couldn't blame her for getting angry out of frustration. She wasn't mistreated at the protest, at worst the opposing MRAs were being rude...as she was also. She is a victim because of the harassment, including rape and death threats and her personal information being posted on the interbutts, she has received from MRAs since then. Did you not read the link I sent?

    Uh you mentioned you didn't believe in patriarchy theory (In a similar manner to the video poster?). Since I posted you the definition of the patriarchy and I would assume you agree with historical lack of female privilege...can I get a touche on that or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I'm sure we both could link to a ton of bigots on both sides, misandrist language, the denial of female privilege etc. Although the more aggressive fems tend to save the most venom for women who disagree with them especially ex-feminists. Erin Patria Margaret Pizzey comes to mind.
    Again, this feels like a Fox News tactic. Yes, there are bigots on both sides. That is because there exists feminism and radical feminism, and, on the MRA side, mostly only radical MRA. Posting back and forth on who has the most bigots in there group by, say, looking at senior current figures in each other's groups and common comments on the most popular feminist/MRA websites is something I'm pretty damn sure feminism would "win" so I can understand why you aren't so keen. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    "We" don't want to be labeled as complainers, whiners and frankly most would just spend their energy on something else. "We" accept our fate in this regards, male disposability. I know I for one would protect my wife and daughters with my life, such is my role.
    I would not label the men in this thread whiners. I would not label you a whiner. I would not, largely, define the (current, internet) MRA movement as one defined by whining. I would, rather, define it as a A. Fundamentally missing the point and B. A hate group.

    Really? How sexist is that! Put down your life for your child sure. But for your wife? I mean, I hope she'd do the same for you. Men aren't women's protectors or guardians just for being men and women--they aren't here to sacrifice themselves for women. The whole notion has risen from the period in which women were thought of as entirely fragile and helpless like children. Why was this so? Because women had no power also known as a patriarchal society. I feel like a twit for driving this point home but it seems it needs to be done.

    *edit*

    Since it might count as derailing you don't have to respond to any of this stuff OP if you don't want, just respond to the firefighter point instead.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I'm just going to be brief in reply as you are right that this thread isn't primarily about the MRM. You did encourage me by posting that video though. As it happens, I would like a reply to the, what I thought, was a very fine point about firefighters you ignored.
    I think that Aimee Greene was wrongfully discriminated against and I hope those responsible are made to pay. I would like to see more women in protector roles myself, i.e. cops, firemen, security guards, soldier etc. As long as they are qualified for the position more power to em. My only concern is the standards by which they are deemed qualified becoming watered down by gender politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Yes protest and counter protest that's how this works. Did I say that her being interrupted made her mistreated? I said I couldn't blame her for getting angry out of frustration. She wasn't mistreated at the protest, at worst the opposing MRAs were being rude...as she was also. She is a victim because of the harassment, including rape and death threats and her personal information being posted on the interbutts, she has received from MRAs since then. Did you not read the link I sent?
    You're right, you did not say mistreated. About "harassment, including rape and death threats". Eehh, the first one seems par for the course when you engage in political activism to that degree (showing up to protest someone's meeting). As for the later two, wishing death/rape/harm upon someone is not the same as direct threat. Hateful? Sure. If she received legitimate death threats then I hope the authorities look into it and act accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Uh you mentioned you didn't believe in patriarchy theory (In a similar manner to the video poster?). Since I posted you the definition of the patriarchy and I would assume you agree with historical lack of female privilege...can I get a touche on that or not?
    The highlighted is basically Patriarchy theory. I will say it explicitly, I do not believe women have a historical lack of privilege. If you like we can discuss how etc. in another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Again, this feels like a Fox News tactic. Yes, there are bigots on both sides. That is because there exists feminism and radical feminism, and, on the MRA side, mostly only radical MRA. Posting back and forth on who has the most bigots in there group by, say, looking at senior current figures in each other's groups and common comments on the most popular feminist/MRA websites is something I'm pretty damn sure feminism would "win" so I can understand why you aren't so keen. :P
    First I'm trying to avoid what you are doing. Like GWW said in her video, whenever there is a social issue feminists push their way to the front of the line and demand to be first. Our way or the highway. Like feminists showing up to say that MRAs are evil/bad/a hate group therefore anything they do must be stopped, including a Center For Men and Families, because it's MRAs wanting to do so. If feminism is for equality and like she said in the video "we are working on that, we want the same things". The guy who made the video mentions this: MRAs wanted to do something that feminism is supposedly for, equality, in this instance open an on campus Center For Men and Families. just like women have, but because they don't approve of the people wanting to do it, they show up and protest. I'd chalk it up to feminist "dislike" of MRAs > any effort to equalize society. Priorities.

    I did not create this thread to justify all MRAs or even some of them but you keep asking me to do so and other instances of "men" being discriminatory, i.e. the firemen case. This seems like a typical tactic. Patriarchy even made an appearance

    Discrimination is bad, regardless of the sex/race etc. of the perpetrator. The dictionary version of discrimination, not the feminist version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I would not label the men in this thread whiners. I would not label you a whiner. I would not, largely, define the (current, internet) MRA movement as one defined by whining. I would, rather, define it as a A. Fundamentally missing the point and B. A hate group.
    You seem to "hate" this hate group (my words and opinion). Big Red certainly does. The irony is not lost on me. (btw the guy who made the video said this as well, that ideologies are not protected minorities) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism Eeehhh. I guess it depends how you go about "doing" it, i.e. legally etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Really? How sexist is that! Put down your life for your child sure. But for your wife? I mean, I hope she'd do the same for you. Men aren't women's protectors or guardians just for being men and women--they aren't here to sacrifice themselves for women. The whole notion has risen from the period in which women were thought of as entirely fragile and helpless like children. Why was this so? Because women had no power also known as a patriarchal society. I feel like a twit for driving this point home but it seems it needs to be done.
    It has more to do with my size, strength, ability and willingness to do so. Now if my wife were a badass in a fight, knew how to shoot a gun etc. I'd be more than happy to have her defend me
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

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    Spanky since both of us want to continue debating the MRA/feminist/humanist shebang would it be appropriate to ask a moderator to separate off those areas of our discussion to another thread while we continue the more male-disposability related stuff here? I'll assume for now you agree and that that can be done by simply replying to those parts of your text that relate more directly to that topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I think that Aimee Greene was wrongfully discriminated against and I hope those responsible are made to pay. I would like to see more women in protector roles myself, i.e. cops, firemen, security guards, soldier etc. As long as they are qualified for the position more power to em. My only concern is the standards by which they are deemed qualified becoming watered down by gender politics.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    I did not create this thread to justify all MRAs or even some of them but you keep asking me to do so and other instances of "men" being discriminatory, i.e. the firemen case. This seems like a typical tactic. Patriarchy even made an appearance

    Discrimination is bad, regardless of the sex/race etc. of the perpetrator. The dictionary version of discrimination, not the feminist version.
    *big edit*
    My reply to these quotes is now in the Male Disposability thread, also in this subforum.


    I'll write a new reply for other parts of your post above that I did not reply to for fearing they were off topic in the male-d thread.
    Last edited by Eruca; 02-13-2014 at 08:05 AM.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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