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  1. #61
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I'll just reply to this part because I'm juggling a lot of tasks at the moment.

    I intentionally used those words (to express how irritating I personally find it), and I am aware of the phrase being hypocritical. *BUT* I think that it is relevant to consider who makes those arguments the most often and question why. If I took out "whiners" and just said "white men" perhaps it would lend itself to a more constructive conversation.
    Two words: Family Court.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    "Reverse racism" is a weird concept. If what they are arguing exists actually does, it's good ol' fashioned racism.
    Well... I think, though, that what people call "reverse racism" IS something different--it's racism that responds to racism. Again--still not okay... but not "good ol' fashioned racism" either.

    I also think that minorities can practice discrimination. Large-scale rape and murder would be pretty horrific, right? I pointed out the examples in sub-Saharan Africa. How about South Africa specifically? Maybe the most odious racial discrimination in the world for decades. They had brave resistance movements fighting the apartheid-era governments. They ALSO had violent terrorist and criminal elements that raped and butchered innocent white people (some not even native South Africans). Not discrimination? Of course it was. They were targeting white people (in their minds: "rich and oppressive") on the basis of race. I don't think it gets any more racist than that.


    Okay. Point taken. And of course that's horrible and should never, ever have happened. It's not okay, regardless of anybody's experience with discrimination themselves, for them to harm another person.

    So my revision: Minority groups cannot perform systemic discrimination.

    What you describe is still basically at the level of individual discrimination: It's a group of individuals discriminating against another group; the offending group is still not a system with hidden rules and subtle oppressions. And I think most everyone else SEES and RECOGNIZES it as wrong. Yes, it is more horrific and individually devastating, and of course I would stand against it.

    But the hegemony I've mentioned is more insidious than these heinous crimes. It's not that the hegemony is WORSE, but it is more hidden and more likely to be "allowed" and therefore, I think, it is something that has to be more consciously and consistently opposed.

    That said, obviously we should consciously and consistently oppose all discrimination, violent or not, overt or not.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    As to "the system," I am not in favor of forced social engineering at all. The best way to teach people what is right and what is wrong is by example when they are young and social stigmatization when they are old enough to know better.
    I'm not sure this is a viable solution. I mean, I'd like to think so, and I would certainly do this with my own children. But not everybody's going to do this, and I don't really think that any group should have to wait for society to "catch up" before that group receives protection/rights in the system. The system should be fair and equitable even when individuals aren't.

    I recognize how idealistic that statement is, but I think it is what we have to believe and work towards if real progress is ever to be made on any front that involves providing justice to minorities.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I'm not sure this is a viable solution. I mean, I'd like to think so, and I would certainly do this with my own children. But not everybody's going to do this, and I don't really think that any group should have to wait for society to "catch up" before that group receives protection/rights in the system. The system should be fair and equitable even when individuals aren't.

    I recognize how idealistic that statement is, but I think it is what we have to believe and work towards if real progress is ever to be made on any front that involves providing justice to minorities.
    In my world, providing justice to minorities means treating the same as you would want to be treated, not treating them as victims or unenlightened innocents who need to be cared for by the good, rich, liberal whitefolk. That kind of attitude is dehumanizing, in my opinion. Besides, a society is only as good as the people who make it up (which includes minorities, they are not outside of "the system"). Can you forcibly change an unfair system into a "fair" one for everyone? I don't know that you can. Preferences in education and hiring aren't really fair, and they also engender hostility from individuals in the majority who may be affected negatively in response to a historical injustice committed by a group of which they weren't even a member.

    I must also add that I have a much different take on this issue as a libertarian. I would have been against most legislation in this regard, even the Civil Rights Act of 1964, on freedom of association grounds. I don't think that discrimination on any basis by private entities should be illegal.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Well... I think, though, that what people call "reverse racism" IS something different--it's racism that responds to racism. Again--still not okay... but not "good ol' fashioned racism" either.
    No, it IS good ol' fashioned racism. An individual member of a minority who personally holds racist feelings toward the majority is a racist. Period. If you deny that, you are, in essence, holding that minorities are not the same as "regular people" and have a completely different (and less stringent) set of ethical rules to follow in society. Basically, that they are inferior and can't be held to the same standards as you or I would be. Racism that responds to racism is still racism. Is my father not a racist for having racist attitudes about blacks, simply because he is bitter for having been beating up regularly by black kids in his neighborhood as a child? They targeted him for being white. Is it less bad for him to be a racist? I would argue no.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #66
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I must also add that I have a much different take on this issue as a libertarian. I would have been against most legislation in this regard, even the Civil Rights Act of 1964, on freedom of association grounds. I don't think that discrimination on any basis by private entities should be illegal.
    Yeah, we'll hit a stand-still with this because of your libertarian (and my socialist/collectivist) views. I do not trust the individual to do what's right enough of the time to get rid of this kind of legislation. My optimism just doesn't extend that far.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Yeah, we'll hit a stand-still with this because of your libertarian (and my socialist/collectivist) views. I do not trust the individual to do what's right enough of the time to get rid of this kind of legislation. My optimism just doesn't extend that far.
    I don't trust the government not to take away people's rights, one by one. They kept slavery legal for as long it was, after all.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #68
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, it IS good ol' fashioned racism. An individual member of a minority who personally holds racist feelings toward the majority is a racist. Period. If you deny that, you are, in essence, holding that minorities are not the same as "regular people" and have a completely different (and less stringent) set of ethical rules to follow in society. Basically, that they are inferior and can't be held to the same standards as you or I would be.
    I don't believe that I am holding that. I am not saying that it's okay to ever have a racist attitude. It's unenlightened and unfair. But I think that the conversations that should occur with racists (they can certainly all have that umbrella title) is going to vary some based on what group they're a part of and why they hold the views that they do.


    Racism that responds to racism is still racism. Is my father not a racist for having racist attitudes about blacks, simply because he is bitter for having been beating up regularly by black kids in his neighborhood as a child? They targeted him for being white. Is it less bad for him to be a racist? I would argue no.
    Fair enough. Racism is bad, mmkay?
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    I don't believe that I am holding that. I am not saying that it's okay to ever have a racist attitude. It's unenlightened and unfair. But I think that the conversations that should occur with racists (they can certainly all have that umbrella title) is going to vary some based on what group they're a part of and why they hold the views that they do.
    Perhaps, but vary how? I can't shake this feeling that what you are saying is that racism from a minority is simply unfair, unenlightened reaction to some larger, nebulous, institutional racism, and a somewhat natural response to being discriminated against a minority.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #70
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Perhaps, but vary how? I can't shake this feeling that what you are saying is that racism from a minority is simply unfair, unenlightened reaction to some larger, nebulous, institutional racism, and a somewhat natural response to being discriminated against a minority.
    Yep. It's a response to a larger, nebulous, institutional racism that IS a somewhat natural response--that isn't okay. And the racism that my father feels because my mother was raped and nearly killed by a black man is also a somewhat natural response--that isn't okay. The conversations that I would have with my father (who is aware of his prejudice and very deliberate about not acting on it, incidentally) would be more about responding to people as individuals, and my conversation with a racist minority would be more about struggling against the unfair system and not against individuals.

    What I thought of, though, when you said "good old-fashioned racism" was definitely more along the lines of racism that is taught (which certainly can occur among minorities as well) rather than racism that occurs as a response to an injustice (be it hegemonic or violent). It's probably the case that most racists (regardless of their group) have an element of this. It's just that, in addition to being taught to hate, racist minorities are often genuinely up against a system of pervasive small inequalities (and some large). It doesn't make it OKAY. It is not EXCUSABLE. But it may be different and certainly requires a different response. But that different response doesn't need to be seen as a less severe one.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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