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  1. #161
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Yes, saying that there are 'lingering effects of racism' does indeed affirm that there is racism. And it is inconsistent to affirm the presence of racism but deny that it has effects. In order to be consistent with the position that there is no 'covert racism', then one must deny the existence of racism altogether.
    It's not inconsistent if I never stated there is no covert racism, and I never did that. I would, however, state that inequality is not due solely to past or present racism, as you seem to be maintaining here. There are more factors at play than discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Looking at the bolded information, you tell who is losing out when it comes to racism. As for Obama, the African American community is voting their objective conscious.
    I am assuming you meant "objective conscience," and I don't think that there is such a thing.

    Do you trully think they would be voting for an African American Republican, whose platform does not cater to their needs?
    Most Democrats and Republicans do not cater to the average person's needs. Both parties are beholden to special interest groups. Also, black Americans tend to be more socially conservative than whites. It would make sense if they began to vote for more conservative Republicans nowadays.


    I take offense to the assumptions being made and realize the continued ignorance of Americans when it comes to race. Can you tell me that the White Democrats are voting their objective conscsious in wanting Clinton as the presumptive nominee when she lost the primaries. Anyone considering voting for McCain that makes less than 75,000.00 or less is clearing voting with prejudicial sentiments.
    None of this makes any sense whatsoever. Especially the McCain. How would a middle-class person voting for McCain be "clearly voting with prejudicial sentiments?" That sounds kinda, you know, PREJUDICIAL there.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    As whatever pointed out, colour blindness (= equalization) is racism.
    To turn the tables is a cosy way to get off the hook.
    The politicians do it all the time.
    Colorblindness does not = racism. Not at all. That is an outrageous thing to say.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #162
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Most Democrats and Republicans do not cater to the average person's needs. Both parties are beholden to special interest groups. Also, black Americans tend to be more socially conservative than whites. It would make sense if they began to vote for more conservative Republicans nowadays.
    Yet this election (as are most) is based on the economic crisis this country finds itself. The Republican Party has never in my life time, had a platform that catered to the Black communities needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    None of this makes any sense whatsoever. Especially the McCain. How would a middle-class person voting for McCain be "clearly voting with prejudicial sentiments?" That sounds kinda, you know, PREJUDICIAL there.
    Clinton followers made it clear that they would cast their vote for McCain after she lost the primary? McCain has made it no secret that he will keep Bush's tax cuts in place, maintains that he does not believe that the government should intervene in the foreclosure crisis, suggesting an energy plan that will take at least eight to ten years to make a difference, has no problem with over turning Roe v. Wade...... Anyone in middle class considering a vote for him cannot be doing it because they agree with his policies. So why are they considering the change in vote?

  3. #163
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Yet this election (as are most) is based on the economic crisis this country finds itself. The Republican Party has never in my life time, had a platform that catered to the Black communities needs.
    I'd love to hear your idea of what "a platform that cater(s) to the black communities" would entail. I am sure it will be entertaining.

    Clinton followers made it clear that they would cast their vote for McCain after she lost the primary? McCain has made it no secret that he will keep Bush's tax cuts in place, maintains that he does not believe that the government should intervene in the foreclosure crisis, suggesting an energy plan that will take at least eight to ten years to make a difference, has no problem with over turning Roe v. Wade...... Anyone in middle class considering a vote for him cannot be doing it because they agree with his policies. So why are they considering the change in vote?
    I hate to break it to you, but A LOT of middle-class people are for some or all of those things. In fact, I think we need FAR MORE tax cuts. And spending cuts. And that the government should do nothing in the foreclosure crisis. And I'm middle-class! I won't vote for McCain, because he is laughably warlike and poor on the First Amendment and generally unlikeable. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of political motivation in this country.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #164
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I hate to break it to you, but A LOT of middle-class people are for some or all of those things. In fact, I think we need FAR MORE tax cuts. And spending cuts. And that the government should do nothing in the foreclosure crisis. And I'm middle-class! I won't vote for McCain, because he is laughably warlike and poor on the First Amendment and generally unlikeable. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of political motivation in this country.
    I'm not sure because I do think "?" is being unclear, but it would seem to me that the middle class folks in question here are the ones who were pro-Clinton and would switch their vote to McCain. Clinton and Obama are much more similar than Clinton and McCain. It does seem questionable that they'd change their votes from Democrat to Republican given the platforms of the individuals.

    I'm not sure it necessarily has all that much bearing on the conversation we've been having though.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  5. #165
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's not inconsistent if I never stated there is no covert racism, and I never did that. I would, however, state that inequality is not due solely to past or present racism, as you seem to be maintaining here. There are more factors at play than discrimination.
    Would it be correct to say, then, that you believe there is covert racism, but that its effects are negligible? If you admit that there's inequality between 'races' of people, then how can it not be due to racism, both overt and (especially) covert?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #166
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's not inconsistent if I never stated there is no covert racism, and I never did that. I would, however, state that inequality is not due solely to past or present racism, as you seem to be maintaining here. There are more factors at play than discrimination.



    I am assuming you meant "objective conscience," and I don't think that there is such a thing.



    Most Democrats and Republicans do not cater to the average person's needs. Both parties are beholden to special interest groups. Also, black Americans tend to be more socially conservative than whites. It would make sense if they began to vote for more conservative Republicans nowadays.




    None of this makes any sense whatsoever. Especially the McCain. How would a middle-class person voting for McCain be "clearly voting with prejudicial sentiments?" That sounds kinda, you know, PREJUDICIAL there.



    Colorblindness does not = racism. Not at all. That is an outrageous thing to say.
    To accept the differences is to refuse to ignore them.

  7. #167
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Would it be correct to say, then, that you believe there is covert racism, but that its effects are negligible? If you admit that there's inequality between 'races' of people, then how can it not be due to racism, both overt and (especially) covert?

    I think that what he has been saying is that he does acknowledge that there is both (definite) overt and (less so) covert racism but that he does not think that this can be changed through affirmative action or government decree. I disagree with what he thinks has fixed much historical racism:

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    [...] intense social pressure and stigmatization and art and more widespread travel and communication. It certainly was NOT by government decree, nor was it by affirmative action.
    However, I don't think he is denying that racism (both covert and overt) exists, though he may be minimizing the effects of covert racism.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #168
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    When does racism end and natural human definition begin?

    If all the people you meet from Daventry are rude to you then would you not be lead to the assumption that Daventry supports and promotes a rude population?

    If racism is to be defined as unreasonable assumption then who defines what is and what is not reasonable? How is such a line agreed upon?

    What worries me is not that racism exists but that it is so ingrained within people's minds that they group "blacks" and such together. If there is only one race then treat is as such. Yes it is a race of individuals with individual needs, there will be times when one lot of people want one thing and another group want something else but really, what the hell does where they come from have to do with it?

    It seems that great minds are being put to work upon this subject and finding little to perch upon. Could it be that great minds forget that what they are discussing is the movement of cattle and therefore not subject to high ideals, philosophy or political tactics?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #169
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If all the people you meet from Daventry are rude to you then would you not be lead to the assumption that Daventry supports and promotes a rude population?
    Although your implicit point is contextually firm (or "firm", if you follow Derrida here...), I'd encourage the individual to refine his assumptions on what defines proper etiquette.

    Closer examination reveals the symmetry in design. Even with waves and particles.

  10. #170
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Although your implicit point is contextually firm (or "firm", if you follow Derrida here...), I'd encourage the individual to refine his assumptions on what defines proper etiquette.

    Closer examination reveals the symmetry in design. Even with waves and particles.
    See comment about the blessed with brains trying to figure out the cattle.

    It IS reasonable to assume... but only in recognition that it IS an assumption. A point oft skipped by those looking for certainty ( thread crossover )
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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