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  1. #131
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Yes. I got your point. And I answered accordingly.
    I see only malice in rounding up people and sending them overseas. I do not see good intent. I do not see compassion. I do not see generosity. I see only racism.
    Even though the white people thought they were doing what was best for the blacks? A lot of bad things in the world is committed by those who believe that they are doing good.

    So my answer is this: Racism is malicious only. There is no excuse.
    Anthony was meek and gentle with the butchers, too. But he was ashamed of it.
    People can do racist things even when they are trying to good (like government-mandated affirmative action, or the previous example of the repatriation).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #132
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I am convinced that you either don't understand the words that I type, or you do not care to understand them. Did you see my point at all? It's exceedingly difficult to have this discussion this way.
    Disappointing, Pure_Mercury...

    You're better than this.

  3. #133
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Disappointing, Pure_Mercury...

    You're better than this.
    You don't know that. And I've just gotten pretty frustrated, because I am getting pretty damn bizarre responses to things I've written (or have not written).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #134
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You don't know that. And I've just gotten pretty frustrated, because I am getting pretty damn bizarre responses to things I've written (or have not written).
    Never fear the bizarre.
    Love it.
    What is at the heart of racism?
    Fear of the bizarre.

    What is bizarre?
    An invitation to understanding.

  5. #135
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Orangey, our political philosophies must disagree at their bases if you believe this. "Voting to correct power imbalances" sounds absolutely frightening to me, and I would hope that most people do not and would not do that.
    I was not describing what I necessarily believe, only trying to explain why, from a certain perspective, the idea of considering a candidate's racial identity as a legitimate factor to weigh into a voting decision is justified. "Voting to correct power imbalances" should only "frighten" you if you don't believe that they exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    This sentence, in particular, is nonsense: "If, however, the person being voted for belongs to the 'race' that already holds the most power, then the only possible reason to vote for them on the basis of their race would be out of ideological dislike for other races, since no power imbalance would exist to be corrected on their behalf." That is completely illogical. There is no viable way to say that a white person voting for a candidate simply because the candidate is white is always motivated by ideological dislike whilst AT THE SAME TIME to say that a black person voting for a candidate simply because the candidate is black may not be motivated by ideological dislike.
    If you had read my explanation then you would understand how this makes sense. I am not trying to convince you to buy into the idea (I have not even said that I believe in it myself), only to consider where it comes from and why it is not "nonsense". Your use of the term 'illogical' in this context is very loose.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Just because someone doesn't have malicious intent, doesn't mean they cannot believe or do something racist.
    The only reason being 'racist without malicious intent' can be viewed as distasteful is if we assume, as I explained before, that there is equal power distribution along race lines (or that power does not correspond to race at all, which is basically the same thing). Individually ignoring that there are 'races' when the distribution of power is divided unequally along race lines only serves to mask that fact. It doesn't make it go away.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #136
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I was not describing what I necessarily believe, only trying to explain why, from a certain perspective, the idea of considering a candidate's racial identity as a legitimate factor to weigh into a voting decision is justified. "Voting to correct power imbalances" should only "frighten" you if you don't believe that they exist.
    OK, if that was a Devil's Advocate-type situation, I won't harangue you for it. Still, someone going out to correct racial imbalances via the ballot box DOES frighten me, and I do believe that these imbalances exist.


    If you had read my explanation then you would understand how this makes sense. I am not trying to convince you to buy into the idea (I have not even said that I believe in it myself), only to consider where it comes from and why it is not "nonsense". Your use of the term 'illogical' in this context is very loose.
    I don't see any way that that sentence could be true, if we believe that all human beings are equal and that we should expect the same level of behavior from everyone.

    The only reason being 'racist without malicious intent' can be viewed as distasteful is if we assume, as I explained before, that there is equal power distribution along race lines (or that power does not correspond to race at all, which is basically the same thing). Individually ignoring that there are 'races' when the distribution of power is divided unequally along race lines only serves to mask that fact. It doesn't make it go away.
    I don't totally disagree, but (as you probably know by now), I am in favor of eliminating the unearned power people have over one another, not in doling it out according to historical inequalities.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #137
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    FDR's Cabinet was a revolving door of white guys, with one Jew and one woman. It wasn't particularly scandalous at the time.
    I had said Cabinet and Advisors

    And if you think it wasn't scandalous perhaps you have not studied the politics of race in America or Southern Politics very in depth. Some people- some of whom were rather powerful at the time- were quite horrified.

    It's only natural to root for the underdog if you yourself fall into that category in a way. Many different factors can prevent a person from falling into the rather WASPish "ruling class" of the United States (Kennedys being an exception there) and race is one of those. You want a revolution? Arm up. But if you want to try and change things a little bit, it's frequently seen to be a way to do this by voting for those who are historically disadvantaged.

    Looking at the narrow, at one time, picture, you may disregard such statements as racist, but if you look at the very broad historical patterns of American voting history and political history the action of voting for someone who is in a historically disadvantaged group is NOT racist- it's simply getting a bit fed up with the way things have always been and voting for someone else. Caring about finally breaking the last glass ceiling isn't a racist move- sometimes claiming to be flatly colorblind is the worst form of racist of all. human society and history has put the differences in place and has blocked people into different social and power strata based on that. To not care is to ignore what history has done that isn't fair. We're all a product of the past, and we at least owe that to our future selves and the future society.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #138
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I had said Cabinet and Advisors

    And if you think it wasn't scandalous perhaps you have not studied the politics of race in America or Southern Politics very in depth. Some people- some of whom were rather powerful at the time- were quite horrified.
    I've studied American History extensively, believe me. FDR's administration was exceptional mostly in its massive expansion of government agencies and the employment of lawyers and scientific experts, not because it was a rainbow coalition of Americans (it was also chock full of Communists and Soviet agents, but that is a story for another day).


    It's only natural to root for the underdog if you yourself fall into that category in a way. Many different factors can prevent a person from falling into the rather WASPish "ruling class" of the United States (Kennedys being an exception there) and race is one of those. You want a revolution? Arm up. But if you want to try and change things a little bit, it's frequently seen to be a way to do this by voting for those who are historically disadvantaged.
    I've been an underdog in some regards in life, but I think it's dangerous to look at things like politics and transpose that mindset there. It's not a football game. And I don't always root for the underdog in football, either. I'm from Philadelphia, remember? I'd prefer to be a gracious winner.


    Looking at the narrow, at one time, picture, you may disregard such statements as racist, but if you look at the very broad historical patterns of American voting history and political history the action of voting for someone who is in a historically disadvantaged group is NOT racist- it's simply getting a bit fed up with the way things have always been and voting for someone else. Caring about finally breaking the last glass ceiling isn't a racist move- sometimes claiming to be flatly colorblind is the worst form of racist of all. human society and history has put the differences in place and has blocked people into different social and power strata based on that. To not care is to ignore what history has done that isn't fair. We're all a product of the past, and we at least owe that to our future selves and the future society.

    I don't think that you can say that something that is racist at the micro level might not be at the macro level. It's great that we have a minority man as a candidate for President. However, isn't it far more important what his policies are, for both minorities and for the white majority?

    As for the last part, I don't see how claiming to be colorblind could ever be the "worst form of racist of all." It may be false, but I think "hoods and nooses" when I think "worst racists of all." Would a colorblind society (a real one) be a bad thing?

    Also, I personally do not feel beholden to the past. We can't change it, but we can learn from it, and it doesn't control what we can do now. What would be more important to a young black child now: having Obama as a President, or going to a school that isn't a joke?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #139
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Have you ever played with a polarizing lens on a manual camera PM? When you turn the lens one way when looking at water you see the surface reflecting back the sky and the landscape- it's beautiful and simple, what most people are willing to look at and accept as a nice water scene. If you turn the polarizing lens the other way though, you see through the surface into the often ugly depths of the water- it's not what you want to see- it's not what you see through normal photography, but it's what gives the surface it's tension and reflection ability.

    History is the underpinnings of our society- we can try and ignore it- look at what we have now and ignore the ugly little bits from the past, but they'll always be there giving us what we have now. Overt v covert racism- the overt- the hoods and nooses are mostly gone, but the covert is harder to see- and it often disguises itself in ways that you'd never imagine. Ignoring the past and WHY society is the way it is, and caring less about fixing the root problems because they are rooted in the past is a form of covert racism that is quite acceptable today.

    Your American History may be different than mine.

    And I'm a Cubs fan- you don't need to tell me about rooting for the underdog
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #140
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    Have you ever played with a polarizing lens on a manual camera PM? When you turn the lens one way when looking at water you see the surface reflecting back the sky and the landscape- it's beautiful and simple, what most people are willing to look at and accept as a nice water scene. If you turn the polarizing lens the other way though, you see through the surface into the often ugly depths of the water- it's not what you want to see- it's not what you see through normal photography, but it's what gives the surface it's tension and reflection ability.

    History is the underpinnings of our society- we can try and ignore it- look at what we have now and ignore the ugly little bits from the past, but they'll always be there giving us what we have now. Overt v covert racism- the overt- the hoods and nooses are mostly gone, but the covert is harder to see- and it often disguises itself in ways that you'd never imagine. Ignoring the past and WHY society is the way it is, and caring less about fixing the root problems because they are rooted in the past is a form of covert racism that is quite acceptable today.

    Your American History may be different than mine.

    And I'm a Cubs fan- you don't need to tell me about rooting for the underdog
    Thank you whatever.
    You wrote the best post.

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